Have you or Leatherneck spent any time at all with troubled kids? I am the director of a day treatment facility (alternative school) and what you are suggesting is just crazy - there is not kid that does not want an education, some just haven't figured out how to function in a school environment and no one is helping them too.

 

Go work in a gas station and flip burgers, right. What do you think the people with GEDs and high school diplomas are doing? We go for weeks on end trying to find work for some of our students, it is just not there.

 

please go spend some time at your local school, find the troubled kids and go visit their homes . . . then come on here and talk about what they can and cannot do.

 

 

We simply have differing philosophies. I've heard of way too teachers (my sister taught her entire career at Newport High School and my brother currently teaches at a rural Ohio school) tell me the worst thing a teacher can do is accept the broken family excuse as a reason for accepting sub par effort and I know coaches that have taken over inner city schools and achieved success by demanding discipline and not acceptiing excuses. I appreciate your work, but you can love a kid to a fault. You can rationalize their difficulties all that you want. Some, probably most, come from troubled families. Life sometimes stinks. You pull yourself up and overcome it. You don't use it as an excuse to fail. Allowing them to be disruptive to the learning process of those that have figured out how to function in a school environment isn't helping them and isn't helping the other kids either. I've actually got no problem with putting them in an alternative school if that helps them succeed. Thus I'll amend my educational reform idea: make it easier to remove problems kids from traditional high school, put them into alternative schools and increase funding if necessary for more alternative schools.

Having not heard a reply if 60 years ago was the 50's I will simply challenge the frame of reference. Mr. Fundamental are you suggesting during the 50's was a better education outcome than today? Make sure I have it right, segregated schools, female denied opportunities, sort and select educational thinking, 50% to 60% drop out rate, certain kids simply denied educational opportunities, extremely low rate to college from high school, etc.

 

If you really think it was better back then, only thing I can say is

We simply have differing philosophies. I've heard of way too teachers (my sister taught her entire career at Newport High School and my brother currently teaches at a rural Ohio school) tell me the worst thing a teacher can do is accept the broken family excuse as a reason for accepting sub par effort and I know coaches that have taken over inner city schools and achieved success by demanding discipline and not acceptiing excuses. I appreciate your work, but you can love a kid to a fault. You can rationalize their difficulties all that you want. Some, probably most, come from troubled families. Life sometimes stinks. You pull yourself up and overcome it. You don't use it as an excuse to fail. Allowing them to be disruptive to the learning process of those that have figured out how to function in a school environment isn't helping them and isn't helping the other kids either. I've actually got no problem with putting them in an alternative school if that helps them succeed. Thus I'll amend my educational reform idea: make it easier to remove problems kids from traditional high school, put them into alternative schools and increase funding if necessary for more alternative schools.

 

The best thing that is happening today is better school leadership is not accepting the excuses from the classroom instructors. Accountability has entered the industry for the first time in its entire existence and significant progress is made. Worst thing to hear from many teachers is comparative comentary they take about students as to who the parents may be, who the siblings were and make judgements accordingly. Teachers are becoming upset and really, there is no excitement to come to their defense. I close with this, I am pleased to know that if a student is in a certain grade level and not performing, particularly reading to that grade level, there is major accountability coming down on this student's teachers. About time!

 

These are very recent actions and the benefits will come in the next handful of years.

Oh, you are definitely right, I don't want them on welfare; hades, I don't want any welfare for any one period. They'd work at gas stations and burger joints, they'd mooch off of their families to survive and if they resorted to crime, I'd lock them up.

 

Allowing discipline problem kids to stay in high school will not result in those kids becoming well educated. If any thing, they make it harder for other kids to become well educated.

 

At some point in time, we will once again make people accountable for their decisions and actions. And no, I do not think high schoolers are too young to be able to make good decisions about their life choices. If that's the case, then kids should not be able to get their driver's licenses until their 21. If they are responsible enough to entrust them with a 2000 pound moving piece of metal on the public highway, they are responsible enough to decide if they want to get with the educational program or be thrown out.

 

And no I'm not saying that you throw them out of high school at the first sign of trouble, but there comes a point when its apparent to any reasonable person that some kids do not want to take advantage of the opportunity to be educated.

 

 

I couldn't agree more - the problem with our educational system is that it is too tolerant of the kids who don't want to be there but their parents lose the monthly check if the kids drop out. It's a system that may seem good in theory, but in reality, it is a LOSE - LOSE.

The best thing that is happening today is better school leadership is not accepting the excuses from the classroom instructors. Accountability has entered the industry for the first time in its entire existence and significant progress is made. Worst thing to hear from many teachers is comparative comentary they take about students as to who the parents may be, who the siblings were and make judgements accordingly. Teachers are becoming upset and really, there is no excitement to come to their defense. I close with this, I am pleased to know that if a student is in a certain grade level and not performing, particularly reading to that grade level, there is major accountability coming down on this student's teachers. About time!

 

These are very recent actions and the benefits will come in the next handful of years.

 

This sounds like a politician who has never been in a classroom.

 

You can lead a horse to water.... but you can't make it drink.

 

The accountability should be shared by school, teacher, student, and parents. The current system is totally flawed and they are already watering down the original requirements to fit the levels that the kids are actually performing.

As PepRock1 said, MS and HS teachers have a bachelor's degree in their subject area, in addition to what amounts to a double major in education. Their masters degree can be in their subject area, but most do this in education, some specializing in certification for principalship, counseling, curriculumn and instruction, etc.

 

Were you just curious or suggesting another plan?

 

I was not aware that the above was the case.

 

I assume then that I hear about so many teachers not being "qualified" due to them not having the undergrad degree in, say, math yet they are teaching math? There was just an article about the # of non-qualified teachers in certain subjects.

I don't believe that as citizens of the Commonwealth that we are willing to pay for anything that will raise the level of education provided. Smaller class sizes requirers a)more teachers and b)more schools.

 

We talk a good game but we never pony up.

Here is an interesting commentary on the challenges teacher's face in areas such as curriculum:

 

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/351030_schoolreform13.html

This sounds like a politician who has never been in a classroom.

 

You can lead a horse to water.... but you can't make it drink.

 

The accountability should be shared by school, teacher, student, and parents. The current system is totally flawed and they are already watering down the original requirements to fit the levels that the kids are actually performing.

 

I am just tired of the tenured industry fighting accountability for years. Now that it became a mandated effort and yes with many flaws, it still significantly improved the work product in the classroom and continues to do so, Accountability by a kid?! No you motivate the kid, you focus the kid. I reject the expectation of kids even in middle school hold a responsiblity to their own education. You don't give them a choice and it does not become a reason why it is not done. As for parent"s", sure if your worst 25% had 2 parentS to deal with, why not. Bet the issues with two parent households don't compare to the single parent.

IMVHO, the problem with education today is that the government has madated (with pressure for several areas) that schools be all things to all kids. It's just not feasible, viable or beneficial, IMO.

I am just tired of the tenured industry fighting accountability for years. Now that it became a mandated effort and yes with many flaws, it still significantly improved the work product in the classroom and continues to do so, Accountability by a kid?! No you motivate the kid, you focus the kid. I reject the expectation of kids even in middle school hold a responsiblity to their own education. You don't give them a choice and it does not become a reason why it is not done. As for parent"s", sure if your worst 25% had 2 parentS to deal with, why not. Bet the issues with two parent households don't compare to the single parent.

 

I'm with you on the tenure thing. IMO there should be no such thing as a tenured teacher. They should be just as subject to a "pink slip" as a 2nd year teacher. If they don't do their job - they shouldn't be able to hide behind the tenure label.

 

So what do you suggest teachers do with a kid in middle school or high school that continually disrupts class and other students, shows continued disrespect to the teacher, other students, and school administration, and could really care less about any academic subject? When a kid disrupts every classroom he/she is in 99.9% of the time, teachers and other students should not have to put up with it. Teachers try all these motivational techniques and methods, but at some point the student needs to be held accountable for their actions so that other kids aren't hindered by this one. IMO, alternative schools can provide training in areas where kids have interest if they are funded and run properly. The sad thing is that in most cases, they are not.

I'm with you on the tenure thing. IMO there should be no such thing as a tenured teacher. They should be just as subject to a "pink slip" as a 2nd year teacher. If they don't do their job - they shouldn't be able to hide behind the tenure label.

 

So what do you suggest teachers do with a kid in middle school or high school that continually disrupts class and other students, shows continued disrespect to the teacher, other students, and school administration, and could really care less about any academic subject? When a kid disrupts every classroom he/she is in 99.9% of the time, teachers and other students should not have to put up with it. Teachers try all these motivational techniques and methods, but at some point the student needs to be held accountable for their actions so that other kids aren't hindered by this one. IMO, alternative schools can provide training in areas where kids have interest if they are funded and run properly. The sad thing is that in most cases, they are not.

 

 

You are misunderstanding my accountability expectation. What you describe is set forth where the effort is made and then, yes an alternative setting is and should be the next step.

 

Plato, my accountability rests with the student who is in the 6th grade, is below the radar screen and not any real issue to the school but reads at a 3rd grade level.

Have you or Leatherneck spent any time at all with troubled kids? I am the director of a day treatment facility (alternative school) and what you are suggesting is just crazy - there is not kid that does not want an education, some just haven't figured out how to function in a school environment and no one is helping them too.

 

Go work in a gas station and flip burgers, right. What do you think the people with GEDs and high school diplomas are doing? We go for weeks on end trying to find work for some of our students, it is just not there.

 

please go spend some time at your local school, find the troubled kids and go visit their homes . . . then come on here and talk about what they can and cannot do.

 

I've worked with troubled boys for 17 years and I'm telling you Leatherneck is absolutely right! There are kids that do NOT want an education, period.

I was not aware that the above was the case.

 

I assume then that I hear about so many teachers not being "qualified" due to them not having the undergrad degree in, say, math yet they are teaching math? There was just an article about the # of non-qualified teachers in certain subjects.

 

CSHS, there are a number of teachers that are emergency certified. That usually means that they have certification in the area they teach, but do not have a teaching certificate. In order to teach again the next year, they must be in a program to attain certification.

 

However, there are cases where teachers can be emergency certified to teach in an area different from their degree. Math and science are two areas that this happens in quite a bit. Special needs is in high demand, also.

 

Unfortunately, there is a great need for teachers in certain areas. I do not see that changing any time soon.

I've worked with troubled boys for 17 years and I'm telling you Leatherneck is absolutely right! There are kids that do NOT want an education, period.

 

I will have to agree with you here. There are some that want to come to school...for the attention, the socialization and some to make "deals"....yet education is the last thing that they want. It's sad.