What I'm saying is that physical laws as we understand them are not how they always work. Jesus, as part of the Trinity, created the laws under which this universe works, from the Planck Constant to the Hubble Law to Stephen Hawkings Grand Unification Theory. Our theorys keep changing because we keep finding out we don't know what we thought we knew or our physical laws don't work all the time. The Universe is a complex system, and we're foolish to think we understand it. I hope to one day see the entire schematics.

Are you saying that scientists have been wrong over the past 2,000 years and then changed their views on things while the Christian message in the Bible has stayed constant?

Yes.

 

I doubt that Jesus wants the government to help the poor.

 

I feel that churches and other private organizations should take care of the poor.

 

I think local private organizations can offer a much clearer. Perspective for need of welfare than arbitrary standards that are set by the government.

 

Amen.

in no way am I saying that we shouldn't care for the poor and disabled, I just don't think the government should do this. Why are we so dependent on the government for everything it seems? Have we been brainwashed so well and for so long that we just go along with whatever the government says is best for us?

 

We are the government - it passes laws and does thing we want it to. The government has not brainwashed anybody - there are more poor and hurting in the communities than can be taken care of by churches and families. Not only that - there are systems (capitalism for example) that prey on the poor and helpless and we need the government to protect those who are unable to do so by themselves.

 

There is a reason that we do not rely on private entities to provide police and fire protection for the community - the government does it better - it does a better job of developing an interstate highway system than individuals would, and it would do a better job of taking care of the needy if we would let it.

The problem with government assisting the poor, is that we then have politicians taking advantage of the poor and the welfare system in order to essentially buy the votes of the poor. Under this scenario, it makes absolutely no sense for politicians to do anything to actually implement solutions to the plight of poverty, because they would lose the dependents they need to vote for them and keep them in power. It's a downward spiral.

 

We regulate lobbying activities, and campaign contributions, but somehow we can't seem to find a way to keep politicians from fueling the fires of class warefare to steal votes and feed their hunger for power.

 

Do you know who votes in this country? Do you think the homeless, who do not have an adress can register and vote? Do you think those struggling with health care vote. Upper middle class and those above are the ones who vote - and the great generation does and varying socio-economic levels - but of course they faught in a legitimate war to maintain that freedom.

You wanna know something funny... I don't believe in God as people today describe Him either...

 

I prefer to believe in Him the way He described Himself to us.

 

Oh right. Through the book written by humans. How silly of me.

 

 

This statement comes across somewhat condescendingly. Perhaps that's not how you meant it, but it certainly sounds as though you feel the thought processes you have followed to conclude... "I don't know" are superior to those of us who examined the facts, observed the world around us and invested considerable thought to arrive at, "This is what I believe."

 

I will concede that “I don’t know” is at the very least an honest response. It is however, difficult to build one’s belief system upon no belief at all.

 

Trust me. I have been on both sides of the aisle. Its far easier to build a belief system on no belief than one on blind faith.

 

One way or another, we will know which "system" was right and all the others that were wrong some day. It could be the Christian belief as we enter eternity to be in God's presence or forever separated from Him... or it could be that last little blip of awareness that flashes across our consciousness before we slip into oblivion. I'm betting my eternal soul on the truth of Jesus Christ. I’m not here to twist your arm. You are clearly free to believe or perhaps more appropriately - not believe - as you choose.

 

 

 

 

Unless I’m terribly mistaken, that’s exactly how courts rightfully send felons to prison. Yes, there are times that evidence irrefutable rises above sworn testimony to clearly present the facts. There are many times however, when sworn testimony is accepted on its merits. The court and the jury places “faith” in the character and words of certain witnesses who present their accounts of events. When the “faith” reaches a certain level, defendants go to jail. Faith is a very important part of our lives… even yours

 

This is where the line of "faith" and "blind faith" begin to head down different roads.

You can test the Big Bang theory? Of what can be tested of it, you can test none of it. You have "blind faith" that the scientist who can test it have been flawless in their proofs, models and conjectures. You are relying on just as great of assumptions as Christians are.

 

 

Really, Hab, you play semantics like a fiddle. "I" can not test, the Big Bang Theory. Scientists can. Ok, we are now on the same page.

 

We both know the difference here. It is not "blind" faith if I can see the results of the test. If I can read results of scientific findings.

 

 

 

You have said on more than one occasion that those who believe in the Christian faith believe in nothing more than a fanciful fairy tale. That is applying your opinion as fact, which is the epitome of arrogance and irreverence.

 

I believe "mythical sky fairy" may be the words youre remembering. I admit that I may not always be tactful. It's not out of pure spite. I am a bit of a misantrophe, truth be told. (Go figure, right?)

 

I disagree with your assessment that I am applying that my opinion if "fact." though I base my opinion on "fact." Call me crazy, but I think believing in fact over faith if the logical thing to do.

 

 

 

If desires, feelings, and emotions like love are simply the result of chemical balances then what choices are we making exactly? That sounds quite contrary to any doctrine of free will I've understood.

 

Or are you saying that love is something more intangible? If so, I await your scientific evidence and facts that will explain it.

 

 

We make plenty of choices based on those chemical balances? Mr. Hypothetical can "love" several different women, yet only choose one of them to be his wife. He isn't commanded (depending on where he lives anyway) to choose one over the other. Its a personal choice with consquences man made - not mandated by a wrathful God.

We are the government - it passes laws and does thing we want it to. The government has not brainwashed anybody - there are more poor and hurting in the communities than can be taken care of by churches and families. Not only that - there are systems (capitalism for example) that prey on the poor and helpless and we need the government to protect those who are unable to do so by themselves.

 

There is a reason that we do not rely on private entities to provide police and fire protection for the community - the government does it better - it does a better job of developing an interstate highway system than individuals would, and it would do a better job of taking care of the needy if we would let it.

 

I can see that you believe strongly in a larger government that takes from those who produce and gives to those who do not. (some would call those looters) I myself am for a smaller government. I guess we disagree here.

We are the government - it passes laws and does thing we want it to. The government has not brainwashed anybody - there are more poor and hurting in the communities than can be taken care of by churches and families. Not only that - there are systems (capitalism for example) that prey on the poor and helpless and we need the government to protect those who are unable to do so by themselves.

 

There is a reason that we do not rely on private entities to provide police and fire protection for the community - the government does it better - it does a better job of developing an interstate highway system than individuals would, and it would do a better job of taking care of the needy if we would let it.

 

I am not the government. Unlike the government I work for my money. Government spends money. The money it receives is not earned. I see a big difference here.

Really, Hab, you play semantics like a fiddle. "I" can not test, the Big Bang Theory. Scientists can. Ok, we are now on the same page.

 

We both know the difference here. It is not "blind" faith if I can see the results of the test. If I can read results of scientific findings.

 

You said that you rely on facts, not faith. But you’ve just admitted you can’t test the Big Bang theory, so you obviously expend a great deal of faith in believing those scientists that can. Human scientist, by the way, the same species you keep complaining about with regards to transcribing the Bible. To be honest, you probably apply a greater amount of faith to the research than the scientists conducting it do.

 

I believe "mythical sky fairy" may be the words youre remembering. I admit that I may not always be tactful. It's not out of pure spite. I am a bit of a misantrophe, truth be told. (Go figure, right?)

 

Whatever.

 

I disagree with your assessment that I am applying that my opinion if "fact." though I base my opinion on "fact." Call me crazy, but I think believing in fact over faith if the logical thing to do.

 

Here it is again: You believe in facts not faith. What facts are you talking about? You have faith in theories that have not been proven, never will be, and rely on prodigious assumptions for them to even be relevant. Yet you continue to assert that your opinion is infallible and all others are simply fanciful.

 

Speaking of faith, your insistence that the Christian God doesn’t exist is, simply, faith. You can’t prove it, you merely disagree with it. That is faith, not fact.

 

We make plenty of choices based on those chemical balances? Mr. Hypothetical can "love" several different women, yet only choose one of them to be his wife. He isn't commanded (depending on where he lives anyway) to choose one over the other. Its a personal choice with consquences man made - not mandated by a wrathful God.

 

So love, being a psychological emotion, which is the result of chemicals in the brain, causes you to have a greater amount of affection toward someone. Where is the choice? Where is the free will? I’m sure you’ll present a slew of facts here to back up your claims that we consciously decide to choose one person over another, rather than being commanded by inanimate chemicals.

:thumb:

Oh right. Through the book written by humans. How silly of me.

 

Trust me. I have been on both sides of the aisle. Its far easier to build a belief system on no belief than one on blind faith.

Wow... thanks for clearing up my questions about whether you are being condescending or not...

:thumb: Wow... thanks for clearing up my questions about whether you are being condescending or not...

 

Clarify please.

 

You want to say that you don't view God the way humans TODAY view him, but how God views himself? Where are you getting the information on how God views himself? The only possible answer I can conclude is the Bible - unles you have some connection that I don't understand. And if you're understanding of how God views himself is the Bible, which was a book written by human beings (regardless of the time period) than it would seem you are the one being condescending.

We're way off the thread topic. I've started a new thread for this discussion. Let's get this one back to Barak Obama. :thumb:

You said that you rely on facts, not faith. But you’ve just admitted you can’t test the Big Bang theory, so you obviously expend a great deal of faith in believing those scientists that can. Human scientist, by the way, the same species you keep complaining about with regards to transcribing the Bible. To be honest, you probably apply a greater amount of faith to the research than the scientists conducting it do.

 

Call me crazy - but I don't think you can compare a human who is doing scientific research on the big bang theory with a human who wants us to believe that a whale swallowed a human being and spit him back out a few days later.

 

 

Here it is again: You believe in facts not faith. What facts are you talking about? You have faith in theories that have not been proven, never will be, and rely on prodigious assumptions for them to even be relevant. Yet you continue to assert that your opinion is infallible and all others are simply fanciful.

 

I have not asserted that my opinion is infalliable. Quite the contrary - I have said repeatedly that if I thought my opinion was infalliable I would be an athiest. That said, I can see no logic in believing in the God described in the Christian Bible. And if we were to appear to me and say, I am exactly as I am described in the Bible, I would refuse to worship a being with so much evil in it hid below a blanket of "all loving."

 

Speaking of faith, your insistence that the Christian God doesn’t exist is, simply, faith. You can’t prove it, you merely disagree with it. That is faith, not fact.

 

Agreed. I'll take my faith with a side of logic and rationale though. Maybe a couple extra packets of salt?

 

 

So love, being a psychological emotion, which is the result of chemicals in the brain, causes you to have a greater amount of affection toward someone. Where is the choice? Where is the free will? I’m sure you’ll present a slew of facts here to back up your claims that we consciously decide to choose one person over another, rather than being commanded by inanimate chemicals.

 

The last time I checked, I don't think our free will covers are on bodily functions, Hab. I don't go to bed - and force myself to dream something tonight. It just happens. I don't choose to allow my heart to beat. I don't get to choose to keep my hair from turning grey (well, naturally speaking). Our bodies are chemicals, energy, matter. We are just a composistion of these ingredients.

 

If a hand stirred ingredients - I can't believe it is a God capable of allowing those creations to burn for eternity and then try to claim it is all loving.

Nice discussion, but what does any of this have to do with the topic?