You mean like Roosevelt, Kennedy and Clinton? At least they didn't have anyone killed for their multiple extra-marital affairs. (That we could prove.)

 

But as LBBC would say, that's probably for another thread.

 

Clinton:eek:...a hero?:scared: Speak for yourself. :sssh:

When you look at the title, dont write me off as some crazy, left wing liberal. I am actually a moderate democrat, who is training(undergrad) to become a minister.

 

That being said, my gripe with the PL movement is as follows: It seems that all PL'rs care so much about the baby while its inside the womb. Yet as soon as its born, and quite possibly goes into foster care and becomes a ward of the state, all the people that defended that childs life seem to dissapear.

 

It is odd that the same people that want these babies to be born, dont want to fork over the tax dollars in social welfare programs, so they can have a fighting chance at a successful life.

 

I know folks who have been on waiting lists to adopt babies for YEARS. There are caring families for these babies. They are lined up around the block. Rarely do newborns go into foster care and become a long term ward of the state.

Wanted to come back to this and cshs81's posts as it has been weighing in my mind since I left for the day.

 

If I am coming to my view because of LBBC's opinion or what I want to see happening or what goes on in this warped brain of mind, I can fully agree with you that it is wrong.

 

BUT, I feel there is a huge amount of Scripture that indicates that Jesus and God will not feel that abortions are acceptable. So when I look at the Bible and it clearly states that something is not acceptable. That is a TRUTH. Not my opinion, not spindocs, or fastbreaks or any of the other posters. That is an absolute truth from Scripture.

 

And I feel comfortable that Scripture indicates that God and His Son would abhor abortion.

 

If any poster feels there is Scripture that indicates God and His Son would think abortion is okay, I would love to see it and if it has credibility, then now we call into question whether it is okay for someone to say that having an abortion is a sin.

 

I think God is clear that killing someone is bad and a sin. So, it is an absolute truth that killing someone is sinful.

 

I can look at their action and say it is sinful but I still love you and WANT you to sit in the same pew as me.

 

Well, where does that feeling that we are judging them come from them?

 

I think that answer is fairly easy. The Bible teaches that all of us have God written into our hearts and a feeling of what is right and what is wrong. The Holy Spirit's job is to convict of us our sin.

 

So when they young lady is looking down the pew and feeling she is being judged, she is. But the judging is coming from herself, more than anyone else.

 

It is that code of right and wrong written in her heart eating at her heart. It is the Holy Spirit convicting her of her sin. That absolute truth of what is is obvious in the Scripture. (again, if anyone has Scripture that they feel indicates that abortion is okay, I would love to see it.)

 

When I sin and unfortunately I do it on a daily basis, that piercing eyes that I think are out there is really the Holy Spirit convicting me of things in my life that I know that I should not be doing.

 

Please don't lose me here as this is the MOST IMPORTANT PART. IT IS VITAL, ESSENTIAL, HUGELY IMPORTANT, that the church (meaning the people in the pews) love this person despite the sin in their life. Love them as Jesus loved the young lady they wanted to stone. But loving them INCLUDES pointing out the sin in their life and telling them to sin no more.

 

And when they do sin again, BECAUSE THEY AND US ARE NOT PERFECT, you love them some more and tell them as Jesus did, to sin no more.

 

AGAIN, YOU ARE MAKING THE ASSUMPTION THAT EVERYONE AGREES IT IS MURDER, AND EVERYONE DOES NOT. IF EVERYONE AGREED IT WAS MURDER IT WOULD BE OUTLAWED - THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT, THERE IS NO OTHER POINT, AND UNTIL IT IS LEGALLY DEFINED AS MURDER IT IS SIMPLY A MATTER OF OPINION. You can tell me all that you want why you think it is not murder and we are moving toward technology that shows fetii are viable, and that is all fine, and when that happens I may change my opinion, but until then your work in this area ought to be to convince people that it is murder based on something other than - a fetus is viable b/c I say it is.

Hatz those are hard Scriptures to swallow especially to those on here that want to think God is nothing but a loving God and acceptful for all.

 

The reality is that in each of your cases, those are situations in which God was speaking of the enemies of God. Hopefully, America is not the enemy of God where he would say it is okay for our unborn babies to be killed.

 

How in the world can an innocent baby be the enemy of God, and if they are how do you know that the 3500 abortions do not happen to potential enemies of God, therefore God has a hand in it?

 

Twisted thinking - I do not believe this for a second, but Harry Cow there is some twisted thinking going on on this board too.

Everything in the Bible is more about the love and grace of God than anything else. :thumb:

 

I don't really want to argue about David. As I said, I certainly understand the point and where it's coming from.

 

The thing is...

 

What would you think about a man who on at least two occasions lied to someone else, claiming his wife was merely his sister almost leading to adultery? A man who had a child by a female servant in his house and then later exiled them and banished them alone into the desert because his wife was jealous?

 

I think we've already covered murderers.

 

How about a son who deceives his father to steal his older brother's blessing?

 

Or a man with 700 wives and 600 "other" women who leads his country into idol worship?

 

Or someone who abandons one of their closest friends when they're arguably needed the most?

 

I've often wondered how my church (or any church) would respond if a known murderer, married to a woman of a different race, came into the church. What would they think or say about him? Yet, what if Moses came in. :sssh:

 

That's my point. We shouldn't define a person's life based on one mistake...and that's easier said than done, depending on the mistake. David (and numerous others) are great examples of God's love and grace...but they're also great personal examples for us to follow. Whether we've committed murder and adultery is not relevant...we have all sinned, thus we're all in the same boat as David. It's all about whether we're willing to follow God to the best of our ability...and when we fail, are we willing to admit it and keep turning back to Him and learn from our mistakes. I think David did that.

 

There are numerous things that made David special to God, IMO, but his unique sensitivity to sin was one. Read his psalm after his adultery with Bathsheba. Also, he constantly sought God's guidance before making any decision. I could go on and on, but I won't. He had a real heart for God...the fact that he did something as terrible as he did, IMO, just speaks to the magnitude of our fallen nature. If a "man after God's own heart", who was Israel's greatest king, who did numerous great things for God, is capable of something so heinous, then we should never put too much faith in any man regardless of how "good" they seem. We are to constantly guard ourselves and stay alert and not get complacent...

 

You know what? You guys have convinced me. David was a dirtbag. In the process, I've realized something else...I've reached a conclusion that has to mean David was a dirtbag.

 

We're all dirtbags.

 

 

This is the Winner !!!!!!

 

:dancingpa

 

 

That's what I've been trying to say and get people to recognize all along. It's not about us. We are all dirtbags!!! It's about God's grace and nothing we have or can do.

 

We can't stand on our 2 feet, only God can help us stand. I've been trying to lead people to see for years that the ground at the foot of the cross is level. We are all sinners before him whether we've done the stuff that girl over there has done or we've done the stuff David did, or done nothing too bad at all. :thumb: