I see increased fines, changes in reentry laws and punishments, changes in the ability to deny entry to, or deport based upon participation in a criminal gang, the implementation of EEVS to assist employers, criminal penalties for document fraud, less ability for employers to claim ignorance in hiring illegals....

 

I don't see what you guys are seeing. I see a good, first step toward a long-term solution.

 

I think everyone wants a quick-fix, and that's not 1) feasible, 2) enforcable in a fair and reasonable way, and 3) beneficial for a long-term solution.

 

I agree with rockmom here. This isn't the be-all, end-all solution but it's a step in the right direction, especially since it is garnering bi-partisan support. Bickering over this issue without producing any legislation is not going to make anything better. By doing nothing, Congress would effectively be giving immigrants "pocket amnesty" anyway. Also, don't blame Congress for what you perceive the executive branch won't enforce.

Not that I don't think this would be great conversation, but shouldn't we start another thread with this post?

 

Seriously...how about we do that, and then we can focus on the immigration topic here, and our general malcontent and litenay of dissatisfactions without interuption. Would that be ok?

Sorry to misdirect the conversation Mom... I just felt a hardy rant coming on, and couldn't resist.

 

Thanks for starting the new thread. :thumb:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you think my rant is something... you should see my runcle... :lol:

Let's put all of our middle class truckers out of jobs. There is no way they can drive for .12 -.15 cents a mile like the Mexicans will. So proud I did not vote for this idiot either time.

I thought that's what the Mexican Wall was supposed to accomplish.

The bill all but eliminates the wall.

I agree with rockmom here. This isn't the be-all, end-all solution but it's a step in the right direction, especially since it is garnering bi-partisan support. Bickering over this issue without producing any legislation is not going to make anything better. By doing nothing, Congress would effectively be giving immigrants "pocket amnesty" anyway. Also, don't blame Congress for what you perceive the executive branch won't enforce.

Most of the analysis I've heard believes that this bill ensures that there will be no further steps or any kind of real enforcement. As far as bi-partison support goes, I believe the Democrats want it to change the vote in America. The change of heart by Republicans was under duress from Chambers of Commerce and George Paseante Arbusto.

I keep hearing that we should enforce the laws we have first before passing new laws, but two of the provisions of this bill are to fund 18,000 more border patrol agents and the construction of 200 miles of vehicle barriers and 370 miles of fencing along the most heavily crossed stretches of the border. Without funding for additional border enforcement resources and physical infrastructure, how is the notion of stricter enforcement possible?

Passing another law that they won't enforce doesn't help; it hurts. Enforcement must be the first step and that doesn't require passing a new law. Get control of the borders first then we can talk about what to do about those already here. However, legalizing those who are already here without gaining control of the borders will only result in even more people coming hear illegally. In ten years we will still be having a discussion about about what to do with 10-20 million illegals. The problem will be that it will be a complete new set of 10-20 million illegals than those we are discussing today.

I agree. Enforce the laws we already have and don't make new ones. Getting control of our borders is imperative and we can't do that with this bill.:thumb:

I keep hearing that we should enforce the laws we have first before passing new laws, but two of the provisions of this bill are to fund 18,000 more border patrol agents and the construction of 200 miles of vehicle barriers and 370 miles of fencing along the most heavily crossed stretches of the border. Without funding for additional border enforcement resources and physical infrastructure, how is the notion of stricter enforcement possible?

Who in the world are they going to get to be border patrol? They have absolutely no power and only serve to be locked up by our government for doing the job they were hired for. This would be a great job for someone with absolutely no self-esteem, because they're certainly not going to get any on the job.

If we keep opening the gates for Mexico to free lance we are going to have another Civil War in 25 years.

I think if the enforcement section of the bill would be followed there would be tons of support for it. After the 1986 Simpson Mazzoli Act most people lost faith in the governemnt's intentions. It was supposed to be tough on employers who hired illegals, but enforcement is rare. It made 2.5 million illegals American citizens. In the 20 years since there are an estimated 12+ million illegals taking their place in America. In this new bill there are tons of enforcement sections to passify all of those against the bill, but there aren't many people who believe the government will actually follow through on them...

Who in the world are they going to get to be border patrol? They have absolutely no power and only serve to be locked up by our government for doing the job they were hired for. This would be a great job for someone with absolutely no self-esteem, because they're certainly not going to get any on the job.

 

 

Well what's the solution, then? Those who opposed this bill got their wish today--it was shelved in the Senate and most believe the issue of immigration reform is dead until after the 2008 election. I honestly believe the red state conservatives whipped into a frenzy over "amnesty" have been the unwitting pawns of business interests that didn't want their source of cheap unregulated labor restricted. It won't be restricted in the least now. A reasonable but admittedly imperfect bill (the product of much bipartisan effort) has been defeated, and now we have the status quo to look forward to for the forseeable future. Voltaire was right when he said, "the perfect is the enemy of the good".

Voltaire was right when he said, "the perfect is the enemy of the good".

I don't intend to be your enemy H... :lol:

This is bad news for those opposing this very bad immigration bill. Shame on Bush and the other sellout Republicans who want to get the Hispanic vote

 

There was a USA Today report saying that unlike the last election, Hispanics are 3:1 in favor of the Democrats today.

Well what's the solution, then? Those who opposed this bill got their wish today--it was shelved in the Senate and most believe the issue of immigration reform is dead until after the 2008 election. I honestly believe the red state conservatives whipped into a frenzy over "amnesty" have been the unwitting pawns of business interests that didn't want their source of cheap unregulated labor restricted. It won't be restricted in the least now. A reasonable but admittedly imperfect bill (the product of much bipartisan effort) has been defeated, and now we have the status quo to look forward to for the forseeable future. Voltaire was right when he said, "the perfect is the enemy of the good".

 

I mentioned a possible solution a while back, but people looked at me like I was crazy.

Well what's the solution, then? Those who opposed this bill got their wish today--it was shelved in the Senate and most believe the issue of immigration reform is dead until after the 2008 election. I honestly believe the red state conservatives whipped into a frenzy over "amnesty" have been the unwitting pawns of business interests that didn't want their source of cheap unregulated labor restricted. It won't be restricted in the least now. A reasonable but admittedly imperfect bill (the product of much bipartisan effort) has been defeated, and now we have the status quo to look forward to for the forseeable future. Voltaire was right when he said, "the perfect is the enemy of the good".

The bill was not shelved. What happened today was that they voted against cloture, which Bush and Kennedy were pushing for. The idea behind clouture is to end debate on a bill so that it can be taken to the back room for discussion by the principals. Its a way to get agreement on a bill behind closed doors and then a quick vote on it. This vote was absolutely a victory for our Republic no matter which party you vote for. A number of Democrat senators voted against invoking cloture.

 

The AFL-CIO and the ACLU are also against this bill.

That's a pretty limited view of cloture. You could also say that cloture is the tool used to end fillibusters.