Like almost everyone I loved how Pete played and how he got the most out of his ability. Despite the numbers, he just doesn't have the athletic talent behind his numbers to call him the greatest living player. Too many other more talented players with great stats.

On 6/27/2024 at 10:42 PM, Tranquility Base said:

Outside of the 3 WS titles, those are pretty much Tony Gwynn numbers.   I'd take him before I take Rose.

Gwynn also, unfortunately, doesn't qualify for the Greatest Living Player discussion. 

14 minutes ago, Jumper_Dad said:

Gwynn also, unfortunately, doesn't qualify for the Greatest Living Player discussion. 

I realize that.  I just meant that if I was fielding a team, I'm putting Gwynn in the lineup before I put Pete in.

On 6/28/2024 at 1:51 AM, Voice of Reason said:

Like almost everyone I loved how Pete played and how he got the most out of his ability. Despite the numbers, he just doesn't have the athletic talent behind his numbers to call him the greatest living player. Too many other more talented players with great stats.

With all due respect I think Pete Rose was an underrated athlete who like you say did the most with his ability. He didn't have eye popping power numbers or a ton of steals. But you can't get more hits than anybody else who played the game without hardly missing any games and not be a good athlete. I'm not usually a big stumper for Rose because I'm not exactly enamored with aspects of his personal character but let's be fair. Before that tho. Full disclosure. I'm on a bunch of coffee again.

Rose hit .300 15 times in a 17 year period when the elite starting pitchers were among the best the game had seen and relief pitching was starting to be specialized with harder throwers and a new assortment of bugs bunny pitches. He had at least 30 doubles 15 times in a 16 year span and at least six triples 11 times. He hit 93 homers in seven years when the majors was dominated by pitching in the mid and late 1960s so he was not bereft of power. He had enough speed to have double digit steals 10 times. He was athletic enough to play six positions. He won two Gold Gloves in right field. Try telling a baseball coach a guy that can play six positions with a bunch of extra base hits without missing any time isn't a great athlete. 

Mike Trout and Byron Buxton are two of the best athletes in baseball over the last 10 years but they flunk the ability of availability. Posting up and being there and performing at a high level for more than 20 years is an athletic ability because that doesn't happen by osmosis. And we all know how rarely Pete missed an inning let alone a game in his prime. He missed nine games in a 10 year span. He missed five games from 1973 to 1980. And he wasn't just there he was elite. He was in the top 10 in MVP voting nine times in a 12 year period.

If he doesn't gamble on baseball he's in the discussion for greatest living ballplayer without reservation. He should be in the discussion despite it. The big question here. Is Pete Rose the greatest living ahead of Junior, Bench and Schmidt et al. There is no question about him being a great athlete. He was. Just a different kind of a great athlete. Really tho, too much coffee here today!

I could make a pretty strong case for Rickey Henderson.   Greatest leadoff hitter of all time. 

On 7/2/2024 at 8:44 AM, mcpapa said:

I could make a pretty strong case for Rickey Henderson.   Greatest leadoff hitter of all time. 

And greatest baserunner. 

3 hours ago, Crazy Legs said:

And greatest baserunner. 

The closest active player is well over a thousand steals behind. 

Rickey Henderson: Played 25 years. Oldest player to play center field in major league history. He loved playing the game and no scandals. Just alot of ego but he backed it up. 10 time All-Star, 3 Silver Sluggers, 1 MVP, 1 Gold Glove, 2 time World Series champion. MLB record 1406 steals, almost 50% more than second place Lou Brock, record 130 in one season and a record 2295 runs. 3,055 hits and .401 OBP making the .279 average OK. 796 walks leading off an inning and didn't strikeout alot. Hit a record 81 leadoff home runs. George Springer is next with 57. Led the league in steals 12 times. Had 100 steals in a season three times. Led the league with 66 steals at age 39. In his first 22 years he had more steals than the entire Boston Red Sox franchise had in 101 years.

17 hours ago, Crazy Legs said:

Rickey Henderson: Played 25 years. Oldest player to play center field in major league history. He loved playing the game and no scandals. Just alot of ego but he backed it up. 10 time All-Star, 3 Silver Sluggers, 1 MVP, 1 Gold Glove, 2 time World Series champion. MLB record 1406 steals, almost 50% more than second place Lou Brock, record 130 in one season and a record 2295 runs. 3,055 hits and .401 OBP making the .279 average OK. 796 walks leading off an inning and didn't strikeout alot. Hit a record 81 leadoff home runs. George Springer is next with 57. Led the league in steals 12 times. Had 100 steals in a season three times. Led the league with 66 steals at age 39. In his first 22 years he had more steals than the entire Boston Red Sox franchise had in 101 years.

Good case for him. Well done. I take him over Pete.

Even though he just retired, it could be Pujols. 

 

Henderson has a great case as well. 

I looked up Wins Above Replacement (WAR) and Ricky Henderson has the highest WAR of any living player at #19 ( I am not counting the cheaters). Pujols comes in at #29 in career WAR. Other living players career WAR:

24. Mike Schmidt

28. Greg Maddux

29. Pujols

30. Randy Johnson

34. Cal Ripken Jr.

38. Bert Blyleven

40. Adrian Beltre

43. Wade Boggs

45. Steve Carlton

48. George Brett

Pete Rose comes in at #67.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml

On 7/5/2024 at 10:17 AM, Voice of Reason said:

Good case for him. Well done. I take him over Pete.

You win games by scoring runs.  The guy scored more runs than anyone else. Largely due to earning more unintentional walks than anyone else    Bonds walked more, but a boatload of those were intentional  

Like I said earlier, I can make a pretty strong case for Rickey    Maddux would be my pitcher  

 

Does Ted Williams count, since they have his head frozen to reanimate it at some point in time?  

It is either Barry Bonds or Ricky Henderson.  My nod to Bonds.

People need to get over the PED stuff. A lot of players, did I say A LOT, were using during the McGuire/Sosa era.  Even one who was mentioned in this thread who somehow gets a pass, even though he had the injury of a steroid user.....twice.  Also, let's not forget that greenies (yes, those are PEDs) were in MLB starting in the 1940s. 

15 minutes ago, No Hiding Here....BC 21 said:

It is either Barry Bonds or Ricky Henderson.  My nod to Bonds.

People need to get over the PED stuff. A lot of players, did I say A LOT, were using during the McGuire/Sosa era.  Even one who was mentioned in this thread who somehow gets a pass, even though he had the injury of a steroid user.....twice.  Also, let's not forget that greenies (yes, those are PEDs) were in MLB starting in the 1940s. 

I would like to get over the PED stuff but the numbers for Bonds and Clemens are farsical. Too absurd to ignore. They made the game and themselves a joke.