1 hour ago, Voice of Reason said:

I would like to get over the PED stuff but the numbers for Bonds and Clemens are farsical. Too absurd to ignore. They made the game and themselves a joke.

Why would you just pick those 2?  I don't think either ever tested positive for anything either.  J/S

You really think just those 2 were using something?

Problem with all that is, where do you start & where do you end?  And has using really ended?

And let's not ignore that everyone in MLB knew what was going on, from Top to Bottom.  And why were they quiet?  $$$$  Baseball was never more popular than it was during that time.

Riverfront Stadium/Cinergy Field/GABP were basically ghost towns during those days.  But SRO when McGuire, Sosa, Bonds, etc came to town

4 hours ago, No Hiding Here....BC 21 said:

Why would you just pick those 2?  I don't think either ever tested positive for anything either.  J/S

You really think just those 2 were using something?

Problem with all that is, where do you start & where do you end?  And has using really ended?

And let's not ignore that everyone in MLB knew what was going on, from Top to Bottom.  And why were they quiet?  $$$$  Baseball was never more popular than it was during that time.

Riverfront Stadium/Cinergy Field/GABP were basically ghost towns during those days.  But SRO when McGuire, Sosa, Bonds, etc came to town

I pick those two because they have numbers that put them in this thread discussion as greatest living player.

There is no doubt Bonds and Clemens used. Bonds added 150-200 HR using steroids. Clemens was an average pitcher for 4 years. Then he uses roids and from age 34 on he adds more than 100 wins, more than 1,000 strikeouts and 4 Cy Youngs.

Without those numbers, are they even in this discussion? Bonds perhaps. Clemens no.

On 7/6/2024 at 5:13 PM, Voice of Reason said:

I looked up Wins Above Replacement (WAR) and Ricky Henderson has the highest WAR of any living player at #19 ( I am not counting the cheaters). Pujols comes in at #29 in career WAR. Other living players career WAR:

24. Mike Schmidt

28. Greg Maddux

29. Pujols

30. Randy Johnson

34. Cal Ripken Jr.

38. Bert Blyleven

40. Adrian Beltre

43. Wade Boggs

45. Steve Carlton

48. George Brett

Pete Rose comes in at #67.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml

I love this list. Good work.

17 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

I pick those two because they have numbers that put them in this thread discussion as greatest living player.

There is no doubt Bonds and Clemens used. Bonds added 150-200 HR using steroids. Clemens was an average pitcher for 4 years. Then he uses roids and from age 34 on he adds more than 100 wins, more than 1,000 strikeouts and 4 Cy Youngs.

Without those numbers, are they even in this discussion? Bonds perhaps. Clemens no.

Bonds is 100% in the conversation.  Realistically he is the only 5 tool guy that has been brought up in the post.  And let's not pretend that Clemens was Jamie Moyer & then became Nolan Ryan.

Like the writers who vote on the Hall, its time to move on.  It's part of the game, and definitely a 25+ year era that isn't going anywhere.  They've already inducted a few "presumed" users & the commish (who really could have ended all the issues with a few sentences) that are tied to that era.

5 hours ago, No Hiding Here....BC 21 said:

Bonds is 100% in the conversation.  Realistically he is the only 5 tool guy that has been brought up in the post.  And let's not pretend that Clemens was Jamie Moyer & then became Nolan Ryan.

Like the writers who vote on the Hall, its time to move on.  It's part of the game, and definitely a 25+ year era that isn't going anywhere.  They've already inducted a few "presumed" users & the commish (who really could have ended all the issues with a few sentences) that are tied to that era.

It's part of the game's history, but not part of the game. Thankfully PED use has been eliminated. That era may be the most shameful era of MLB history.

Bonds was a hall of famer without steroids. It is a shame he ruined his legacy using roids.

Clemens - without roids, he doesn't win as many games as Jamie Moyer. Without roids, Clemens has 4 fewer Cy Youngs. His overall numbers are more fraudulent than Bonds' numbers.

I'm not a fan of PED use, however I'm not naive either.  I harken back to when MLB turned a blind eye to the McGuire-Sosa homerun chase that supposedly "saved major league baseball".  MLB played it up to the hilt and you cannot tell me they didn't know both were on PEDs.  I think athletes are still using them, it's just more refined nowadays.

A little more than a month in and it looks like we have eight players who have been vouched for as Greatest Living Baseball Player. After re-reading the responses and parsing the wording, here they are with number of vouches:

Bonds 2
Griffey Jr. 2
Henderson 2
Koufax
Bench
Rose
Pujols
Schmidt

If we were to add two more for an even 10 candidates, who would they be?

My candidates for those two spots in alphabetical order:  George Brett, Derek Jeter, Chipper Jones, Eddie Murray, Sadaharu Oh, Cal Ripken, Carl Yastrzemski, Robin Yount.

Not saying he's the greatest, but this guy has to be on the short list. The bolded records are just ridiculous. 

If a pitcher struck out 250 batters for 22 straight years, Nolan Ryan would still have more strikeouts.

Ryan holds 51 total MLB records, including:

- 5,714 career strikeouts (next-most is Randy Johnson with 4,875)

- 7 career no-hitters (next-most is Sandy Koufax with 4)

- Lowest career batting average allowed (minimum 1,500 innings pitched): .204

- 12 career 1-hitters, tied with Bob Feller

- 18 career 2-hitters

- 31 career 3-hitters

- 15 200-strikeout seasons

- 6 300-strikeout seasons

- 4 career 19+ strikeout games

- 5 career 18+ strikeout games

- 8 career 17+ strikeout games

- 16 career 16+ strikeout games

- 26 career 15+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher

- 36 career 14+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher

- 56 career 13+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher

- 95 career 12+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher

- 151 career 11+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher

- 215 career 10+ strikeout games

- 282 career 9+ strikeout games

- 358 career 8+ strikeout games

- 447 career 7+ strikeout games

- 517 career 6+ strikeout games

- 596 career 5+ strikeout games

- 654 career 4+ strikeout games

- 710 career 3+ strikeout games

- 752 career 2+ strikeouts games

Single-season records:

- 3 19+ strikeout games, single season (1974)

- 3 18+ strikeout games, single season (1974)

- 3 17+ strikeout games, single season (1974)

- 3 16+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher, single season (1972, 1974)

- 6 15+ strikeout games, single season (1974 - tied with Pedro Martinez)

- 15 12+ strikeout games, single season (1973)

- 18 11+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher, single season (1973)

- 23 10+ strikeout games, single season (1973 - tied with Randy Johnson)

- 26 9+ strikeout games, single season (1973)

- 29 8+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher, single season (1973)

- 32 7+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher, single season (1973)

- 36 6+ strikeout games, single season (1974 - tied with Sandy Koufax)

Other notable achievements:

- 6.55 hits per nine innings pitched, career, minimum 1,000 innings (next-fewest is Sandy Koufax at 6.79)

- 5.26 single-season hits per nine innings (1972)

- 26 seasons with at least one win

Credit: Yesterday in Baseball

The old coot makes a good case for Rickey.  I still go with Bonds, even if he roided up.

On 8/9/2024 at 11:21 AM, Jumper_Dad said:

Not saying he's the greatest, but this guy has to be on the short list. The bolded records are just ridiculous. 

If a pitcher struck out 250 batters for 22 straight years, Nolan Ryan would still have more strikeouts.

Ryan holds 51 total MLB records, including:

- 5,714 career strikeouts (next-most is Randy Johnson with 4,875)

- 7 career no-hitters (next-most is Sandy Koufax with 4)

- Lowest career batting average allowed (minimum 1,500 innings pitched): .204

- 12 career 1-hitters, tied with Bob Feller

- 18 career 2-hitters

- 31 career 3-hitters

- 15 200-strikeout seasons

- 6 300-strikeout seasons

- 4 career 19+ strikeout games

- 5 career 18+ strikeout games

- 8 career 17+ strikeout games

- 16 career 16+ strikeout games

- 26 career 15+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher

- 36 career 14+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher

- 56 career 13+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher

- 95 career 12+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher

- 151 career 11+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher

- 215 career 10+ strikeout games

- 282 career 9+ strikeout games

- 358 career 8+ strikeout games

- 447 career 7+ strikeout games

- 517 career 6+ strikeout games

- 596 career 5+ strikeout games

- 654 career 4+ strikeout games

- 710 career 3+ strikeout games

- 752 career 2+ strikeouts games

Single-season records:

- 3 19+ strikeout games, single season (1974)

- 3 18+ strikeout games, single season (1974)

- 3 17+ strikeout games, single season (1974)

- 3 16+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher, single season (1972, 1974)

- 6 15+ strikeout games, single season (1974 - tied with Pedro Martinez)

- 15 12+ strikeout games, single season (1973)

- 18 11+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher, single season (1973)

- 23 10+ strikeout games, single season (1973 - tied with Randy Johnson)

- 26 9+ strikeout games, single season (1973)

- 29 8+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher, single season (1973)

- 32 7+ strikeout games by a right-handed pitcher, single season (1973)

- 36 6+ strikeout games, single season (1974 - tied with Sandy Koufax)

Other notable achievements:

- 6.55 hits per nine innings pitched, career, minimum 1,000 innings (next-fewest is Sandy Koufax at 6.79)

- 5.26 single-season hits per nine innings (1972)

- 26 seasons with at least one win

Credit: Yesterday in Baseball

Sold. Not sure why I left him off since I also talked about him. It's the coffee...

UPDATED. Nine finalists with # of vouches for the Greatest Living Baseball Player:

Bonds 2
Griffey Jr. 2
Henderson 2
Koufax
Bench
Rose
Pujols
Schmidt
Ryan

If we were to add one more for an even 10 candidates, who would he be?

My candidates for those two spots in alphabetical order:  George Brett, Derek Jeter, Chipper Jones, Eddie Murray, Sadaharu Oh, Cal Ripken, Carl Yastrzemski, Robin Yount.

I'm leaning Yaz or Rip.

Yaz's 96.5 career WAR leads that list. Had one of the greatest most consequential seasons ever in 1967 with the Red Sox when he was the best baseball player on the planet as part of the Impossible Dream: MVP, Triple Crown, All-Star, Gold Glove. He won 3 batting titles, 7 gold gloves and was an all-star 18 times. 40th all-time with 452 HRs which is 18th among left-handed hitters. First AL player in history with 3000 hits and 400 HRs. 646 doubles: NINTH all-time!  He ran: 168 career steals, 23 in 1970. There's a grandeur about him. The name . . . Yaz. It's cool. He's kind of a darkhorse because it's getting to be a long time ago when he played. I mean that's Beatles and Summer of Love territory around '67.

Ripken is next in WAR at 95.9. Obviously more recent. I think most every ball fan knows his bona fides: The Streak, one of the first of the new bigger power hitting shortstops, a mystique about him kinda like Yaz. 3000 hits and 400 HRs kinda like Yaz only Rip was a SS! Rookie of the Year, 2 MVPs, 2 Gold Gloves, 19-time all-star, 8-time Silver Slugger. Won a Home Run Derby. He was clutch: .336 lifetime in 28 postseason games with a 1983 World Series championship. Didn't run much and career OBP wasn't great: .340. But 2,632 consecutive games from 1982 to 1998!! It's still mind boggling.

The others ranked by career WAR:
Brett 88.6 WAR, 48th all-time
Chipper 85.3 WAR, 52nd all-time
Yount 77.4 WAR
Jeter 71.3 WAR
Murray 68.7 WAR

Just FYI:
Greg Maddox 106.6 career WAR, 28th all-time
Randy Johnson 101.1 career WAR, 30th all-time