1 minute ago, Irish Cat said:

On the other hand you also have grandparents such as my 94  year old grandmother who are severely lonely and desperate for someone to come visit them.  I went and saw her for the first time since this started last month and what she told me is that if she knew she would live for another couple of years but had to stay trapped in her home, she'd rather die of Covid right now.  She is miserable. She can't drive, and her children that live locally won't take her anywhere, not even church.   I felt bad that I was only able to visit with her a few  hours.  

I am sorry to hear that about your grandmother and I have heard similar accounts.  Hopefully you get to see her again soon.

9 minutes ago, theguru said:

What about goggles/face shields/eye protection @Voice of Reason?

Sure, put them all on if you are able and want to. If you are using that as an argument against masks, it makes zero sense.

I want the economy to stay open and be more open. I want to visit family for Thanksgiving. And I want people who are naysayers on masks to wake up and take a look around at what's happening.

11 minutes ago, Irish Cat said:

On the other hand you also have grandparents such as my 94  year old grandmother who are severely lonely and desperate for someone to come visit them.  I went and saw her for the first time since this started last month and what she told me is that if she knew she would live for another couple of years but had to stay trapped in her home, she'd rather die of Covid right now.  She is miserable. She can't drive, and her children that live locally won't take her anywhere, not even church.   I felt bad that I was only able to visit with her a few  hours.  

 I have similar stories in my family. Congratulations to you and all your family keeping her safe so that you were able to visit her recently. If you continue to keep her safe, I am very confident you will get to spend a lot more time with her in the future.

2 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

Sure, put them all on if you are able and want to. If you are using that as an argument against masks, it makes zero sense.

I want the economy to stay open and be more open. I want to visit family for Thanksgiving. And I want people who are naysayers on masks to wake up and take a look around at what's happening.

That is exactly how I feel about masks. 

7 minutes ago, theguru said:

That is exactly how I feel about masks. 

No need to wear that seatbelt either. So uncomfortable.

43 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

 I have similar stories in my family. Congratulations to you and all your family keeping her safe so that you were able to visit her recently. If you continue to keep her safe, I am very confident you will get to spend a lot more time with her in the future.

She's 94.  Let's not act like her days aren't already numbered.  Why shouldn't she be able to enjoy life on her terms.  But that's not how some are letting it play out.  Visits have to be kept secret, lest you not be vilified for putting her at risk.  

42 minutes ago, Irish Cat said:

She's 94.  Let's not act like her days aren't already numbered.  Why shouldn't she be able to enjoy life on her terms.  But that's not how some are letting it play out.  Visits have to be kept secret, lest you not be vilified for putting her at risk.  

Do you believe in euthanasia?

I hear all that you are saying. As I mentioned above I am dealing with almost the exact same situation in my family.  I prefer doing everything I can to keep my family members safe and look forward to having them with me for more and better times ahead.

1 hour ago, Voice of Reason said:

No need to wear that seatbelt either. So uncomfortable.

I am able and want to wear a seatbelt. 

1 minute ago, theguru said:

I am able and want to wear a seatbelt. 

 So your focus is completely on your own individual rights above the rights of anybody else you may come in contact with.  I am fine with people not wearing masks as long as they don't put others at risk.

18 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

 So your focus is completely on your own individual rights above the rights of anybody else you may come in contact with.  I am fine with people not wearing masks as long as they don't put others at risk.

That sounds like the attitude you take towards eye protection...

If someone is wearing a mask that is my signal to stay away from them. 

11 minutes ago, theguru said:

That sounds like the attitude you take towards eye protection...

If someone is wearing a mask that is my signal to stay away from them. 

 The risk factor of me spreading the virus to you from my eyes is negligible.  It is certainly geometrically lower than the risk of me spreading it to you from my mouth or nose with no mask.

At this point, I liken someone trying to discount the value of mask wearing to someone trying to convince me that the Earth is flat.

2 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

 The risk factor of me spreading the virus to you from my eyes is negligible.  It is certainly geometrically lower than the risk of me spreading it to you from my mouth or nose with no mask.

At this point, I liken someone trying to discount the value of mask wearing to someone trying to convince me that the Earth is flat.

Like I have told you ad nauseum, show me the studies.  

49 minutes ago, Voice of Reason said:

Do you believe in euthanasia?

 

No.  Of course not.   Not sure why you are asking me that except as a way to insinuate that by believing my grandmother having a right to live life on her terms is somehow leading her to her death.  

She survived the great depression living in a farm house in rural Illinois without the luxuries of heat or running water.  She left home in her mid teens to go work at a factory in Evansville building tail wings for airplanes during WWII.  She's not scared of Covid whatsoever.  But her quality of life has suffered due to Covid and all the restrictions.  It is a shame that we are forcing the elderly to die alone and in isolation because of this.  What a terrible way to treat people supposedly for their own good.  I bet if you ask them the majority would rather take the risk of catching Covid than being shunned.  

Elderly people are dying in isolation

At least the media is starting to acknowledge that lockdowns have led to deaths unrelated to Covid.  

 

46 minutes ago, Irish Cat said:

No.  Of course not.   Not sure why you are asking me that except as a way to insinuate that by believing my grandmother having a right to live life on her terms is somehow leading her to her death.  

She survived the great depression living in a farm house in rural Illinois without the luxuries of heat or running water.  She left home in her mid teens to go work at a factory in Evansville building tail wings for airplanes during WWII.  She's not scared of Covid whatsoever.  But her quality of life has suffered due to Covid and all the restrictions.  It is a shame that we are forcing the elderly to die alone and in isolation because of this.  What a terrible way to treat people supposedly for their own good.  I bet if you ask them the majority would rather take the risk of catching Covid than being shunned.  

Elderly people are dying in isolation

At least the media is starting to acknowledge that lockdowns have led to deaths unrelated to Covid.  

 

 How is she restricted? If she is unable to drive or get out, family members could take her out if she really wants to go out. She doesn't have to wear a mask if she doesn't want to because very few really enforce it.  If she doesn't care about the risk and she can find somebody willing to help her do what she wants to do, then she can go do it. If she is in a nursing home, then yes it is a much different story and she is under the rules of where she is living. 

 I agree totally that staying safe with COVID has been very tough on the elderly.  Yes, I have seen that with my own family members as well.  Everyone has to make their own decisions about how much risk they want to take. They are free to do so as long as it doesn't put others at risk. It is a situation where you have to pick your poison. There are no totally positive or good answers in these situations.

1 hour ago, theguru said:

Like I have told you ad nauseum, show me the studies.  

I mean this as a legitimate question. 

You believe in UFOS but you don't believe in studies that virtually every medical expert agrees show high value in wearing masks? 

My point is there is vastly more documentation supporting mask wearing than UFOS, and you believe in the one with much less scientific support.