Totally agree. You should not be penalized because a guy before you was too lazy to put the turf back in place. If it was impossible to do so and it is a sand filled divot, then it should be played as ground under repair IMO. The guys I play with are not so serious that we would ever expect a guy in our weekly game to play from a divot in the fairway...roll it and move on...we are probably like 90% of amateurs in that respect.

Honestly I would bet 95%+ of amateur golfers would roll the ball in a fairway divot unless playing in a tournament. I know for a fact that no one I play with regular would ever willingly play out of a fairway divot. It’s an insanely stupid rule.

You’re looking at it all wrong. I would venture to say

 

Maybe. I think most of the guys I play with, though are just fine with leaving it in. I’ve always left it in every chance I get, even short putts off the fringe. So I’m not sure your 95% number is necessarily accurate.

Maybe. I think most of the guys I play with, though are just fine with leaving it in. I’ve always left it in every chance I get, even short putts off the fringe. So I’m not sure your 95% number is necessarily accurate.

I’ve never in my life played with a golfer who left the flag in when they putt. Ever. FWIW I play 5-6 times a week from April-September. Hell I take the flag out on probably a decent percentage of my chips around the green. Bottom line, if I’m trying to make it I’m taking the flag out. Everyone I play with and have ever played with is the exact same way. Visually, the flagstick makes the putt more difficult to read and it also provides the illusion that the hole is smaller. These aren’t my words, these are the words other people have told me when the rule was brought up. I 100% believe if you want to putt with the flag in, you should be able to. The old rule where it penalized the act was ridiculous. But despite that, I don’t think anyone I know is going to leave the flag stick in the hole. I don’t even leave the little flag sticks in on the practice green. I think this rule won’t even be a talking point by the summer because everyone will still be playing the same way they always have, with the flag out of the hole.

I’ve never in my life played with a golfer who left the flag in when they putt. Ever. FWIW I play 5-6 times a week from April-September. Hell I take the flag out on probably a decent percentage of my chips around the green. Bottom line, if I’m trying to make it I’m taking the flag out. Everyone I play with and have ever played with is the exact same way. Visually, the flagstick makes the putt more difficult to read and it also provides the illusion that the hole is smaller. These aren’t my words, these are the words other people have told me when the rule was brought up. I 100% believe if you want to putt with the flag in, you should be able to. The old rule where it penalized the act was ridiculous. But despite that, I don’t think anyone I know is going to leave the flag stick in the hole. I don’t even leave the little flag sticks in on the practice green. I think this rule won’t even be a talking point by the summer because everyone will still be playing the same way they always have, with the flag out of the hole.

 

Maybe we just play golf on different planets, or maybe it’s a generational thing. But I was always taught to leave the flag in whenever possible. And Dave Pelz still recommends and says after running tests, that when you can, leave the flag in. Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt - Golf. While I guess I get the reasons why you say you shouldn’t leave it in, to me, most of them sound like overthinking. Just doing a quick google search, it looks like most articles recommend leaving it in, and of the 4 or 5 I read real quick, none of the problems you mention even appear. So when one of the most famous golf teachers ever, says you should leave the stick in, and my 35 years of experience confirms that belief, that’s what I’m going to run with, and I’ll maintain, that the actual number that won’t leave the flag in is much less than 95%.

Maybe we just play golf on different planets, or maybe it’s a generational thing. But I was always taught to leave the flag in whenever possible. And Dave Pelz still recommends and says after running tests, that when you can, leave the flag in. Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt - Golf. While I guess I get the reasons why you say you shouldn’t leave it in, to me, most of them sound like overthinking. Just doing a quick google search, it looks like most articles recommend leaving it in, and of the 4 or 5 I read real quick, none of the problems you mention even appear. So when one of the most famous golf teachers ever, says you should leave the stick in, and my 35 years of experience confirms that belief, that’s what I’m going to run with, and I’ll maintain, that the actual number that won’t leave the flag in is much less than 95%.

I really don’t know what to tell you. Maybe we are playing golf on different planets. I’ll get back to you this summer when I’m back playing with my regular group and maybe their hearts will change. If putting with the flag in gets traction on tour then I believe you will start to see amateurs adopt it. After all so much of what we do as amateurs is inspired by what we watch on TV. But Dechambeau being the only guy putting with the flag in isn’t enough to get amateurs to start putting with the flag in. I think you would need 15-20% adoption of putting with the flag in and have a major winner putt with the flag in to get any movement from amateurs in that regard.

My quabble about a foursome in front of me has never involved the flag. Like someone mentioned before...whomever is closest to the pin usually pulled it after they marked their ball and layed it at the edge of the green out of everyone's way, and whomever was first in the hole usually went over and picked it up and put it in after the last person made their putt. Not pulling the flag may only save a matter of seconds, if anything.

 

I've always seemed to play behind the people who think that after they're done with the hole that it's appropriate to sit in their carts (next to the green) to write down scores, get something from their bag, grab a cold one from the cooler, etc. instead of doing it at the next tee box. Pure etiquette would speed up pace of play for amateurs more so than not pulling the flag, IMO.

I really don’t know what to tell you. Maybe we are playing golf on different planets. I’ll get back to you this summer when I’m back playing with my regular group and maybe their hearts will change. If putting with the flag in gets traction on tour then I believe you will start to see amateurs adopt it. After all so much of what we do as amateurs is inspired by what we watch on TV. But Dechambeau being the only guy putting with the flag in isn’t enough to get amateurs to start putting with the flag in. I think you would need 15-20% adoption of putting with the flag in and have a major winner putt with the flag in to get any movement from amateurs in that regard.

 

I certainly agree that people will generally mimic what they see on tour. My comment about "different planets" wasn't meant to be negative. It was simply meant to highlight how shocked I was at your experience with keeping the flagstick in. I played a ton of golf in my 20's and 30's, and largely my experience has been to keep the stick in whenever you have a chance, and I've never heard anyone bring up any possible negatives. Admittadly, I now only play a couple times a year, so I'm guessing maybe the narrative regarding the flag has changed some over the last decade or so.

If I play by myself I never take the flag out. If I'm playing with someone else it is up to them. If I have my way it stays in.

 

Totally agree with @doomer on rolling shots in the fairway out of divots.

I really don’t know what to tell you. Maybe we are playing golf on different planets. I’ll get back to you this summer when I’m back playing with my regular group and maybe their hearts will change. If putting with the flag in gets traction on tour then I believe you will start to see amateurs adopt it. After all so much of what we do as amateurs is inspired by what we watch on TV. But Dechambeau being the only guy putting with the flag in isn’t enough to get amateurs to start putting with the flag in. I think you would need 15-20% adoption of putting with the flag in and have a major winner putt with the flag in to get any movement from amateurs in that regard.

 

I watched a little of the tourney in Hawaii last night and saw Spieth putt from about 10 feet with the flag in...get ready for it...it will not take long for putting with the flag in to not be a novelty but a very regular occurrence on the tour, which in turn will lead to amateurs doing it.

 

Think of it this way...PGA tour players will try do ANYTHING to save a stroke. They will putt cross-handed, with a claw grip, with a long putter, looking at the hole, change their putters constantly, etc...anything that saves even one stroke a tournament means literally six figures in annual earnings. Once they are shown that it saves strokes to putt with the flag in, MANY players will start doing it on some putts.

If Tiger leaves the flag in, the discussion will be over...:lol2:

 

Everyone will do it!

If Tiger leaves the flag in, the discussion will be over...:lol2:

 

Everyone will do it!

You’re right if that happens, everyone will do it. Tiger moves the needles with everything golf related.

I have not seen the science that confirms that leaving the flag in is an advantage. But, as I think about the speed of my misses (which are likely to bounce off the stick) versus the gentle pace of the pros which will more likely be subject to gravity, it begins to possibly make more sense for the pros. For most amateur bangers, we might still be better off with the flag out. Or, maybe not. Going to be a matter of personal confidence that can change hole by hole.

I have not seen the science that confirms that leaving the flag in is an advantage. But, as I think about the speed of my misses (which are likely to bounce off the stick) versus the gentle pace of the pros which will more likely be subject to gravity, it begins to possibly make more sense for the pros. For most amateur bangers, we might still be better off with the flag out. Or, maybe not. Going to be a matter of personal confidence that can change hole by hole.

 

Here's the science.

 

Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt - Golf

Thanks rjs4470, but, Pelz never sites any data to convince me one way or the other. Putt speed, angle of hitting flag, and % of putts that fall from different distance will be tracked over time and generally support one either in or out over time. I suspect finesse putts hit slowly will fall more often with the flag in. While banging long putts will get an advantage hitting the stick. For us amateurs that have no clue about our speed, who knows?

Thanks rjs4470, but, Pelz never sites any data to convince me one way or the other. Putt speed, angle of hitting flag, and % of putts that fall from different distance will be tracked over time and generally support one either in or out over time. I suspect finesse putts hit slowly will fall more often with the flag in. While banging long putts will get an advantage hitting the stick. For us amateurs that have no clue about our speed, who knows?

 

I don’t think there’s any way you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that leaving the stick in will result in more holed putts. Too many variables to duplicate in a scientific setting. For me, when I was learning the game, it was always beat into my head to leave the flagstick in. Personally, I’m going to be happy to leave the stick in regardless of what the pros do.