November 7, 200619 yr I think the question is, is he a top 10 talent or are you trying to build a winning team? He is a top 10 talent but there is no way I would want him, Artest, Bryant, or McGrady on my team. AI went to an NBA Final and Kobe has won a few.
November 7, 200619 yr Wow, such venom. I'm going to give you my best objective opinion on this issue. However, the whole starting a team theory is ridiculous. How about I give you what I think will have the most all-around value to their team this year. Not necessarily who will "carry" their team further, but who contributes the most (in different areas) to helping their teams win. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, as to why I didn't chime in immediately: K.G. LeBron Dirk Kirilenko Kobe Duncan Iverson T-Mac Marion Brand That would be my All-Around Top 10 today. Using Iverson's age as a strike against him is unfair until he shows signs of dropping off, which he hasn't. There aren't many guys that can give you 35 a night, he is one of them. There aren't many guys that can give you 8+ assists a night, he is one of them. There REALLY aren't many guys that can give you both. He is one of them. Comparing him to a big guy is really unfair to the big guy in many cases -- AI has the ball a lot, and like it or not, the new rules favor the perimeter players. Yao is one of my favorite players, and can do a bunch, but when all is said and done he'll be lucky to be a 25 and 10 player. Is that more "valuable" than AI, given Yao's turnovers, I say no. Comparing Vince Carter and / or Rashard Lewis (among others listed) to Iverson is a joke...period. Seriously, it's ridiculous. You can shoot holes in my Top 10 above, without question, but in May we'll look at an analysis of who has done what this year and I'll bet those 10 are awfully close to the top in terms of all around contributions to their teams. No Wade ????
November 7, 200619 yr Dwyane Wade would clearly be 11 or 12 had I extended the list. He does a lot of things, no question. Iverson will average more points than Wade, shoot a better pct. from the arc, shoot a better pct. from the line, and will average more assists and steals. Wade adds a lot of intangibles, but those are hard to place a value on.
November 7, 200619 yr Wow, such venom. I'm going to give you my best objective opinion on this issue. However, the whole starting a team theory is ridiculous. How about I give you what I think will have the most all-around value to their team this year. Ok, but the question was starting a team. I know he will be one of the most valuable players to his team b/c the team is clearly built around him taking all of the shots and handling the ball a lot. If the ridiculous hypothetical situation was there and you could pick any player in order would you pick him in the top 10? I would never pick him in the top 10. Stats can be very misleading. Wade is one of the 2 best players in the NBA. He has a higher ceiling than anyone else in the NBA except for maybe LBJ.
November 7, 200619 yr As I told cshs81, when you mix in the "intangibles", the list would change. However, since you can't quantify them, how do you place value on them? If I was starting a team, which again I think is a silly way to judge these guys, I'd have a lot of Battier's and Heinrich's too -- but they don't belong in this conversation. Does Wade have a TREMENDOUS upside -- sure. Obviously. The sky's the limit. If you don't want to use numbers from this year to back up these lists than these debates are going to go around in circles based on each person's mythical value placed upon intangibles. I'll leave my list as is, feel free to post 10 of your own, and I'll take my chances that in May my 10 will have produced 10 of the best all-around seasons of any guys in the NBA. Wade is great -- no question. Again, he isn't asked to do as much, I get that, but that changes the dynamic of this argument.
November 7, 200619 yr I want to add that I think AI is a very good-great basketball player. He's not one of the top 5-10 basketball players in the world though. He one time has taken a team to a Finals appearance in a very week conference. He has to take a bunch of shots to contribute what he contributes. I would take at least 5 PG's or SG's in front of him if I were trying to build a championship team for this year. And I would take at least 8 big guys before him. I can't even believe people would argue that he's a top 5 player in the NBA this year.
November 7, 200619 yr As I told cshs81, when you mix in the "intangibles", the list would change. However, since you can't quantify them, how do you place value on them? If I was starting a team, which again I think is a silly way to judge these guys, I'd have a lot of Battier's and Heinrich's too -- but they don't belong in this conversation. Does Wade have a TREMENDOUS upside -- sure. Obviously. The sky's the limit. If you don't want to use numbers from this year to back up these lists than these debates are going to go around in circles based on each person's mythical value placed upon intangibles. I'll leave my list as is, feel free to post 10 of your own, and I'll take my chances that in May my 10 will have produced 10 of the best all-around seasons of any guys in the NBA. Wade is great -- no question. Again, he isn't asked to do as much, I get that, but that changes the dynamic of this argument. There is no doubt in my mind that your 10 if healthy will contribute numbers. I'm not going to argue that. To put up numbers and to be the best players in the NBA are different. Chauncy Billups for instance will not put up the numbers that AI does this year. I think that a vast majority of personell people in the NBA would rather have him this year over AI. Steve Nash might have better numbers than AI, but I would argue that AI is a better all around player. I get what you are saying about this being a circular argument, but people said he is a top 5 player in the league this year if you could pick anyone in the NBA. At some point you could argue that numbers don't put him in front of Wade, LBJ, Dirk, Duncan, or KG. That is an easy 5 then there are guys like D. Howard (who by the way will put up huge numbers) that are going to be better this year who aren't even in the next group of players yet.
November 7, 200619 yr AI went to an NBA Final and Kobe has won a few. Antoine Walker won a title also and I wouldn't want him. Kobe has proven to be selfish. I think Iverson plays very hard but I don't think you win with a 6'0" shooting guard or a score first point.
November 7, 200619 yr ^ Hate him or love him anyone that wouldn't want Kobe on their team is crazy. Maybe I have the wrong opinion of Bryant. He just seems to be me first. I just don't know if he is a good teammate. Like I said I could be way off.
November 7, 200619 yr Maybe I have the wrong opinion of Bryant. He just seems to be me first. I just don't know if he is a good teammate. Like I said I could be way off. I know when I say that(have a Kobe avatar) people just think I'm a homer. Looks at his stats- They look pretty similar to a man many call MJ. He's probably one of the top 20 players of all time when its all said and done.
November 7, 200619 yr I know when I say that(have a Kobe avatar) people just think I'm a homer. Looks at his stats- They look pretty similar to a man many call MJ. He's probably one of the top 20 players of all time when its all said and done. That's true. And I am one who has never liked Kobe but he is what he is, a scorer! When he retires he will probably end up with 5 rings, not be a Laker, and will be one of the best ever. Now that being said, he compares to Michael stats wise, but not as a player. See I think that MJ was one of the best players ever, when I think of Kobe I think of one of the best scorers ever. I dunno, alot more left in Kobe before any final assumptions are made!!
November 7, 200619 yr Someone asked me today if I thought AI was a top 10 player TODAY. Assuming we're basing it ONLY on who we would pick for a team to win THIS year and not somewhere down the road, here are the players I take BEFORE AI (in no order): D Wade Lebron KG Kobe Melo Elton Brand Vince Carter Tim Duncan J Kidd Rashard Lewis Dirk Shaq Chris Paul Tayshaun Rasheed (obviously character does not count on my team) Yao Pau Gasol Dwight Howard bolded are who I might take over him...
November 8, 200619 yr bolded are who I might take over him... Those are my top 6 along with Duncan in the top 7 if he's able to be healthy and not age too much this year.
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.