Interesting. I thought they were still restricted to their county. However, how often is the school not filled to compacity?

 

According to educators I have talked to, some of Jeff. County's public high schools are at 70% capacity or less. I beleive someone told me Valley High School is barely half full. Jeffersontown High School used to be larger than Trinity when I was in high school in the 90's. Today Jeffersontown is not even 4A so I guess it has 700 or so students now.

 

JCPS needs to close a few schools which are so far below capacity and sell the land and buildings. The public outcry would be enormous though so it won't happen anytime soon.

I'll be honest, Woody, I have no idea. I've tried to understand the defense of closed boundaries, but my feeble mind simply cannot grasp it.

 

I believe that competition for students strengthens schools. It creates an atmosphere whereby schools MUST attain and maintain higher levels of quality in their education and I simply don't understand why, if it's a possibility, school districts don't embrace it.

 

 

You end up with the haves and the have nots.

 

Jefferson County is the perfect example with several of the state's top schools (Male, Manual) and several of the state's worst schools (Shawnee, Western).

 

It's fine if you can afford or have the means to send your children to where the haves congregate. If not, you get left behind and everybody wonders why those schools in the poor sections of town can't compete.

I still say the debate isn't Public/Private, it's Urban/Rural.

 

Kids in Urban school Districts with several HS's in the District and open enrollment can choose which school to attend. The best ballers will want to all go to a school with a chance of getting to the carpet. Superpowers develop, Public and Private.

 

Very few Rural school Districts have more than one HS anymore - the kids in those District have only ONE choice. If they live in a District with a HS that doesn't play good ball, for whatever reason, they can't go to another school outside their school District without violating KHSAA rules.

 

That's what the debate is really all about. Rural ballers MUST go to their local school, so, in order to maintain a semblance of fairness, Urban schools must play by the same rule. The solution is to abolish open enrollment, and make the kids go to school in their home Districts.

You end up with the haves and the have nots.

 

Jefferson County is the perfect example with several of the state's top schools (Male, Manual) and several of the state's worst schools (Shawnee, Western).

 

It's fine if you can afford or have the means to send your children to where the haves congregate. If not, you get left behind and everybody wonders why those schools in the poor sections of town can't compete.

 

HDE, there are several issues within your post.

 

Yes, there is disparity between public schools. There is also disparity, though, in Private schools. DeSales, although an all boys school, isn't nearly the size that Trinity and St. X are. They also don't have the success in football that Trinity and X have. There's MORE to it than haves and have nots. There is no simple answer, and there never will be. All things are NOT equal, whether it be because of enrollment, money, community support, or anything else. But if you limit the choices and opportunities of kids (where it is possible to offer choices), then YOU (society, not you personally) limit the kids. The fact that some schools are successful and some are not IS in the hearts of the population of the school...it's in their priorities, their creativeness, their willingness to volunteer time, talent and yes...money.

 

I realize there are areas of the state where only one school choice is offered in the county. I'm VERY familiar with that. Grayson County, where my sisters and brother, cousins, and now nephews all attended/attend/will attend, is one such example. But, I chose to live in an area that offers different options for schools choice. That was my choice. While Shawnee and Western may not be the richest schools, and may struggle with many issues, they aren't the fault of the school system, but the fault of societal circumstances (lack of parental involvement, behaviorial, etc.) But that is NOT the the fault of the school or open enrollment. It's so true that so much of what a child is begins at home. With open enrollment, a child in Louisville is absolutely able to live in the Russell neighborhood and attend a school such as Ballard or Eastern or Manual, or any other, IF he/she meets the criteria. Without open enrollment, that wouldn't be the case. THEN the school district would be at fault for limiting that child's opportunities.

 

MountainTop, my reply covers your solution as well, I believe. The first and foremost consideration should be the education of the child. To limit or abolish opportunities and choice when it is absolutely unnecessary to do so is NOT at all in the best interest of the child's EDUCATION. If you had said put open enrollment in a different class, competing with privates and independents, I could have found at least some rationality in your solution. But to abolish educational opportunities to somehow ensure athletic equality is absolutely the wrong line of reasoning to a solution.

 

In addition, unless a constitutional ammendment is approved that takes away the rights of the individual community to decide the best way to run their school districts, open enrollment will not be abolished. There is no law that states how school districts must define their enrollment by place of residence.

You end up with the haves and the have nots.

 

Jefferson County is the perfect example with several of the state's top schools (Male, Manual) and several of the state's worst schools (Shawnee, Western).

 

It's fine if you can afford or have the means to send your children to where the haves congregate. If not, you get left behind and everybody wonders why those schools in the poor sections of town can't compete.

Are you from Louisville?

 

Nearly every school in the county now is a magnet school. The best school, Manual, is a purely magnet school. I lived in Fern Creek growing up, far away from where I went to school for elementary school at ML King, located at 43rd and Muhammed Ali, WAY down in the West End; and I went to Noe Middle and Manual High School, located in Old Louisville down the street from one of the largest public housing sections in the city, the Hill St. Projects. All were top-notch schools. None of them had any bearing on where my house was in the south east corner of the county

 

So it doesn't matter where you live, you can get an exceptional education for free if you live in Jefferson County. And you don't have to be good enough to get in to Manual, either- there are plenty of other options with less dificult standards. Basically, if you understand the system you can get in somewhere with good educational standards.

There is something basically wrong in allowing such a wide disparity in opportunities in one county. Do those students at the schools on the lower end of the spectrum deserve to have the worst education in the state because their parents don't care or don't understand the system when some of the best schools in the state are in the same county?

 

Every school should have good educational standards or they should not exist.

There is something basically wrong in allowing such a wide disparity in opportunities in one county. Do those students at the schools on the lower end of the spectrum deserve to have the worst education in the state because their parents don't care or don't understand the system when some of the best schools in the state are in the same county?

 

Every school should have good educational standards or they should not exist.

Your problem is with the concept of stratification, which occurs in individual schools even if it isn't implemented by the district. In JCPS, the concept works like the entire county is one school, academically- and all students have the same opportunities, because they have the ability to go to whichever program or school they can get into.

 

Do you think it's wrong to allow more advanced students to take more advanced classes, or should they be forced to learn at the lowest common denomenator? Because there is no difference conceptually between having honors classes and having schools more academically rigorous than others.

You end up with the haves and the have nots.

 

Jefferson County is the perfect example with several of the state's top schools (Male, Manual) and several of the state's worst schools (Shawnee, Western).

 

It's fine if you can afford or have the means to send your children to where the haves congregate. If not, you get left behind and everybody wonders why those schools in the poor sections of town can't compete.

 

I may be wrong (NOT) but money plays NO part in who gets into Manual OR Male High Schools. The fact remains that parents who are active in their childrens' choice for which high school to attend would have no problem chosing Manual and/or Male over Shawnee or Western. That is unless they want their child to get a step up in the aviation or food service industry. For the most part I read the posts by most of the uninformed on this site. I, at times have been an uninformed poster as well. But my concern is... where does the solicitaion end? Insert whatever word you please but a school in central Kentucky is not likely to have questions raised about a student/athlete from Tennessee, West Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, or Missouri. After years of accepting the fact that a public/private school is admitting a student from a neighboring county or state when will it be acceptable to start accepting student/athletes from other states, countries, etc. It may sound far fetched but that is what made schools like Oak Hill Academy a household name. "All in the name of paying the bills" , as some private supporters may say. Where will it end? As I stated long ago, offer the same privileges to the outstanding tuba player for the band or the tennis player or the biology student. I am tired of seeing the issues pushed aside and other distracting arguments made. The school districts like Nelson County/Bardstown would be hard pressed to "sneak" a kid in from Bullitt County or Washington County. It would not be as easy as say a school in Fayette or Jefferson County could with a neighboring county. I think we can all agree that a potential student that is not from with in the Jefferson County lines can attend a public school if they are able to pay what amounts to tuition in the area of $ 4200.00 per school year (if there is an opening). If that family feels that strongly about doing this then what would be the issue? I would be willing to bet that a student that takes this avenue to attend Manual or Male would not be doing so to play a sport. For the same token, what is wrong with a family wanting their child to attend a private school? Even if that child attended a public school for the previous 3,4,5,6 years? NOTHING! I think the schools should be able to "Showcase" what they can offer the "Students" as a "recruiting" tool in open forums for educational purposes only. The Showcase of Schools allows them to do this. When we start seeing coaches and alumnus attending youth league games and talking about the athletics, I think that is where the "Athletic Recruiting" gets out of control.

I am also tired of hearing the comparisons with football and basketball, THERE IS NO COMPARISON! Period! You Do Not Need the same enrollment numbers to field a team of 12-15 varsity basketball players as you need to field a team of varsity football players. That is why the football classifications started. There was atime when the Jefferson County schools were all class 4A. Enrollment numbers dropped at schools and the obvious happened, they could not compete.

I can say that I do not hold all schools accountable for what some of the other schools do. I thought it was a joke when the KHSAA disciplined a local coach for some of the same things that all schools did on a regular basis. It was a witch hunt, a scapegoat was found, made an example of (because the governing body was not willing to address the real problem) and a coach was forced out. I am sure a lot of people will say, "this happened" and "that happened" but the bottom line is a small fish was caught and used as an example for what a lot of big fish had also done. (No bias because I know this applies to more than one side.) Think about the real issues, be honest with yourself, and ask, "do we really care if this child comes to our school for His/Her education or are we more interested in how this student/athlete can help us become a better team on friday night?"

There is something basically wrong in allowing such a wide disparity in opportunities in one county. Do those students at the schools on the lower end of the spectrum deserve to have the worst education in the state because their parents don't care or don't understand the system when some of the best schools in the state are in the same county?

 

Every school should have good educational standards or they should not exist.

That may be easier said than done. How many schools exist in Harlan County? You are talking about the issues in you small corner of the world. There is alot more diversity in Jefferson Ciounty than most people outside of the county can even imagine. I am not ignorant to the fact that there is also diversity in all other counties as well. There are 20+ high schools alone in Jefferson County. Some of these schools offer auto mechanics, aviation, service industry, retail marketing training, etc. Do they all meet the same academic standards? No! There are always going to be schools that score higher in statewide testing than others and rank higher nationally than others. Am I to believe that it is because of the teachers? I believe it is because they are allowed to select the students that best fit the schools' curriculum and have the highest chance to succeeed in such an atmosphere. On the flip side of your coin, is it fair for a higher achieving student to be held back because of a student who cannot keep up or does not want to keep up is in the same class?

Knute, Jefferson County, Kenton County, and other counties are able to draw from outside their boundaries.

 

It's NOT a state law, it's a district by district decision. Unless a there is some LAW that public schools have to follow that private schools don't, with respect to enrollment policies, your statements hold no water. There's nothing unfair about it. Public schools can choose to open their districts. It CAN be done. Jefferson County did it. With your statements, you'd have to throw JCPS schools in with the privates because a kid can live in Kosmosdale near the Meade Co line and attend Ballard if he/she chooses. Ballard is clear across the county, 20 miles or 29 minutes as estimated by Yahoo Maps. Valley High School, Doss, Iroquois Western High School, PRP...all are MUCH closer.

 

I will play devil's advocate and stretch the imagination a little but the scenario is very possible. As we all know our state does not have the largest population and many schools are county schools, with that county school providing the largest employment/tax base in the county. Thus in many areas the school keeps the county/town or city government a float. So what could happen (I emphasize could, not would): Let's say county A has a school with 750 kids in a rural area. 25 miles away from school A school B is pretty good academically and athletically. So state-wide open enrollment is enacted and approved by state legislature allowing kids to go to school anywhere they choose regardless of residence. School A's enrollment drops 30% because many students want to attend school B and because there is no penalty they do. School A can now no longer afford to stay open because funding from the government is based on per child enrollment. The school shuts down, and the largest employer in the county/town is no longer providing jobs. Folks move out because they can't find a job in the town now (that includes all teachers, janitors, maintenance, drivers, cafeteria employees, teachers aides, etc...). Those that are lower income and can't afford to move now get move further below the poverty line. Now that school A has shut down and can't service the county many kids who lived on the other side of the county and can't find a way to school B can't attend school (what do we do about those kids??).

 

Again this is obviously hypothetical, but not really so far fetched that it couldn't happen in rural counties in our state. Open enrollment state wide could feasibly bankrupt some communities driving the poverty level up and making it very difficult for some to attend schools. If there are no districts who is responsible for transporting kids to school 45 miles away? It seems to me that district lines are created to make sure all students receive an education and allow them a school to go to that is within a reasonable distance of home. If schools shut down due to open enrollment, and that would happen, some kids may not attend school due to a several hour bus ride assuming they could be bussed.

 

Thought I would throw that scenario out there. I refuse to make this a public private debate because there are other threads for that. I am sure it will be butchered, but it is something that could happen in our rural areas.

I still say the debate isn't Public/Private, it's Urban/Rural.

 

Kids in Urban school Districts with several HS's in the District and open enrollment can choose which school to attend. The best ballers will want to all go to a school with a chance of getting to the carpet. Superpowers develop, Public and Private.

 

Very few Rural school Districts have more than one HS anymore - the kids in those District have only ONE choice. If they live in a District with a HS that doesn't play good ball, for whatever reason, they can't go to another school outside their school District without violating KHSAA rules.

 

That's what the debate is really all about. Rural ballers MUST go to their local school, so, in order to maintain a semblance of fairness, Urban schools must play by the same rule. The solution is to abolish open enrollment, and make the kids go to school in their home Districts.

 

Is there someone with a response to this point? There have been plenty to HDE but none to Top5. If there is, I would like to hear it. This is a very interesting discussion.

Is there someone with a response to this point? There have been plenty to HDE but none to Top5. If there is, I would like to hear it. This is a very interesting discussion.

 

 

IT'S ABSOLUTELY Urban vs Rural [i am NOT going to use a red state blue state comparison b/c too many people will blur this important subject with their other views]

 

I keep seeing folks arguing that public schools don't have to limit their boundaries for accepting kids as if they just nilly willy made that up out of thin air. There have to be reasons!

 

I don't recall if the larger cities of say Lou / Lex didnt used to have enforced boundaries and then changed or if it's always been that way? If changed, what were the political, financial, legislative pressures that caused it?

 

As someone from a smaller city I recall having school boundaries originally mirroring the political lines of the city (those have evolved with annexation, etc. so I dont know that they match now) My "understanding" was that if we accepted X number of students from another school district then we had to reimburse that school district the fed/state/local?? monies equal to X's attendance. I believe it was a district by district agreement with sometimes no agreement reached - as I recall.

 

I'd like to hear some opinions (preferable FACTS) on whether publics alleged "choosing" to have district boundaries is/was simply a gentlemans agreement in order to prevent so-called recruiting or simply mass exodus from one school to another that would leave a % of PUBLIC children in an unstable educational situation? Was it enforced/recommended by state legislature?

After all, this is public school with a mandate to educate all children. So doesnt it make sense that each public school (or district) was established to serve a specific area - not have open enrollment?

 

Are/were the public schools concerned with an influx of students that would overcrowd them and make the educational setting poor or unstable for their current students. (ie. would they not have enough monies from say their tax base to expand - since these kids were from outside where they received their local tax money?)

 

There are other ideas/possible factors/reasons that I could throw out but I would really like to hear from others on:

 

1. what are the reasons the larger cities have open enrollment (and when/why did change - if it did so)

 

2. what are the reasons that most (it seems) public schools outside of those urban areas have a district boundary that is basically enforced for accepting students?

 

Lets keep it on the basic principles - not slamming others please?

 

Woody Jr

Maybe we need to split the championships up into urban and rural. Then the urban could be sub-divided into public/private... and so on. What the heck, lets apply the T-ball rule and give everybody a trophy.

That's what the debate is really all about. Rural ballers MUST go to their local school, so, in order to maintain a semblance of fairness, Urban schools must play by the same rule. The solution is to abolish open enrollment, and make the kids go to school in their home Districts.

 

If Louisville were to abolish open enrollments, dismantling the both the magnet and traditional school programs, they no longer have any athletes from outside their districts... fine. Trinity, St. Xavier and the other private schools could still at least draw from the entirety of Louisville Metro (since I'd assume there would also be a limit on where private school athletes would come from).

 

With private schools still drawing from such a large area, I'd think there would be a few Louisville schools that would disagree about how fair the elimination of open enrollment really is.

If Louisville were to abolish open enrollments, dismantling the both the magnet and traditional school programs, they no longer have any athletes from outside their districts... fine. Trinity, St. Xavier and the other private schools could still at least draw from the entirety of Louisville Metro (since I'd assume there would also be a limit on where private school athletes would come from).

 

With private schools still drawing from such a large area, I'd think there would be a few Louisville schools that would disagree about how fair the elimination of open enrollment really is.

 

 

So my question (1of them) is did Lou public schools change to an open enrollment policy to keep up with the privates?

 

and/or what are the related factors?

thanx, Woody Jr