Runners at first and third, one out. Fly ball caught by fielder. Runner at third tags up properly and scores. Runner at first does not and goes to second, and is doubled off at first, but runner crosses plate before play is made. Does run count? I say no, but umpire says yes. Happened at peewee game so no argument, (I refuse to act like a fool in front of kids). I just want to know who is right.

Standing up for the kids is not acting like a fool. The run should not count. It is my opinion that if there is a rules violation at any level including T-Ball that it is the coaches responsibility to question the umpire. The approach is the difference in being a responsible coach or acting like a fool.

The run does count. The runner crossed home before the third out was made and it was not a force play. The only way a run does not count is in the event of a force play.

Standing up for the kids is not acting like a fool. The run should not count. It is my opinion that if there is a rules violation at any level including T-Ball that it is the coaches responsibility to question the umpire. The approach is the difference in being a responsible coach or acting like a fool.

 

Hilltopper, read Mack the Knife's response. He is 100% correct, and you are 100% incorrect. It is only a force play when a runner is being forced to advance to the next bag, not when they are being forced to go back and tag a bag.

 

This is why coaches should not act like a fool and question the umpire. Most of them do not know the rules very well. The umpires do.....!!!! I am a veteran umpire and am very involved in youth baseball, and the biggest problem with youth sports is so-called responsible coaches that do not know the rules and also don't realize that they are supposed to be setting a good example. We wonder why kids question authority at every opportunity.

 

I am amazed that you even posted your response!!:irked: :irked:

Hilltopper, read Mack the Knife's response. He is 100% correct, and you are 100% incorrect. It is only a force play when a runner is being forced to advance to the next bag, not when they are being forced to go back and tag a bag.

 

This is why coaches should not act like a fool and question the umpire. Most of them do not know the rules very well. The umpires do.....!!!! I am a veteran umpire and am very involved in youth baseball, and the biggest problem with youth sports is so-called responsible coaches that do not know the rules and also don't realize that they are supposed to be setting a good example. We wonder why kids question authority at every opportunity.

 

I am amazed that you even posted your response!!:irked: :irked:

 

I may be wrong, but I thought that an improper tag counted the same as a force play. If you are correct, I apologize for being wrong. However, I would like to read this interpretation in a rule book somewhere. Do you have a rule reference? If so, please share. And if you think questioning a rule is acting a fool , then you should not be umpiring. It is the coaches responsibility at any level to question and confirm the umpires ruling. I have coached for many years and would love to have you umpiring one of my games just so I could pull the book out on you. I always hated the so-called "know it all" umpires who thought they were always right. There was nothing better than having them have to correct their decision.

I may be wrong, but I thought that an improper tag counted the same as a force play. If you are correct, I apologize for being wrong. However, I would like to read this interpretation in a rule book somewhere. Do you have a rule reference? If so, please share. And if you think questioning a rule is acting a fool , then you should not be umpiring. It is the coaches responsibility at any level to question and confirm the umpires ruling. I have coached for many years and would love to have you umpiring one of my games just so I could pull the book out on you. I always hated the so-called "know it all" umpires who thought they were always right. There was nothing better than having them have to correct their decision.

 

How is advancing a base on an illegal tag up even remotely the same as a force play? Runner did not Have to go, he chose to go. Keep that rule book handy...

According to the definitions I found on MLB it reads like this:

"A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner. Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the "force" situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score. Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire's judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts. So in the case above according to this, the run would count. But, IMO questioning this would not be making a fool of yourself.

Run counts if runner touches home prior to third out being made.

I think the run counts because it would be like a tag out.If the runner crossed the plate before the tag it counts.Just my thought.

Even the question caused disagreement, and to be honest, Hilltopper and Mack the Knife are both right about questioning the umpire. I asked the question, much the same as I did here. The ump offered the explanation I heard here. I thought he was wrong, but it turns out I may be, so I am glad I let it drop, with both myself and the ump behaving reasonably and civilly to each other in front of the children. You don't learn if you don't ask, but on the other hand, if you question authority, (which is okay) do it in a respectful manner, if you wish to be treated respectfully.

Good job Diamond Dandy and a good rules question here. Oh well, you win some arguments and you lose some. In my 20+ years of coaching I have won more than I lost with the men in blue when it came to rules. Didn't always get my way though and sometimes winning an argument on a rule cost later me on some judgement calls.

Imo the run does not count bc it wasn't a force out.

Good job Diamond Dandy and a good rules question here. Oh well, you win some arguments and you lose some. In my 20+ years of coaching I have won more than I lost with the men in blue when it came to rules. Didn't always get my way though and sometimes winning an argument on a rule cost later me on some judgement calls.

 

Don't feel bad...I too have coached for over 20 years and I once actually had Blue convienced that the runner I sent from third (too early) and had slid accross the plate a split second after the ball was bunted was a STRAIGHT STEEL and the run should count even though the batter was thrown out at first for the third out. After about 20 minutes of argument and rule book viewing from the opposing coach...blue reversed his call...hahahah

According to the definitions I found on MLB it reads like this:

"A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner. Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the "force" situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score. Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire's judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts. So in the case above according to this, the run would count. But, IMO questioning this would not be making a fool of yourself.

 

I don't have any problem with you questioning a rule that you know. This one you didn't, so questioning it only made one person look like a "fool".

 

That is my last word.... enjoy your holiday weekend!!!:dancingpa

In a game I attended, they didn't count the run...