TN Church Exiles Member Who Won't Publicly Condemn Daughter

[PP1]

Good for her.

 

She's more of a Christian than the minister by the sounds of it.

 

I've heard this statement before. It makes absolutely no sense.

There seems to be so much respect for this mother for sticking to her guns, does the church not have the right to stick to their guns? I personally believe homosexuality is a choice and a sinful choice, but I do not condemn people. I too am a minister and my sin is no different than theirs, and for all I know I probably sin more frequently. The minister of the church had a little quote at the end of the article that seems to be consistent with accepted biblical doctrine, he probably could have been a little more tactful though.

[UKMustangFan]

So you are saying if your kid was addicted to drugs, choice or not, that you wouldn't stand by them ? I can subscribe to homosexuality not being a choice but it seems short sighted to not also subscribe to addiction theory….kind of a same horse of a different color isn't it ?

 

Not at all. I was simply explaining how the comparison doesn't fit.

 

Addiction is a disease, but that doesn't change the fact that one has to willingly choose to consume the drug in order to get addicted.

 

If you're homosexual and don't act on it, you're still homosexual.

[UKMustangFan]

I've heard this statement before. It makes absolutely no sense.

There seems to be so much respect for this mother for sticking to her guns, does the church not have the right to stick to their guns? I personally believe homosexuality is a choice and a sinful choice, but I do not condemn people. I too am a minister and my sin is no different than theirs, and for all I know I probably sin more frequently. The minister of the church had a little quote at the end of the article that seems to be consistent with accepted biblical doctrine, he probably could have been a little more tactful though.

 

Can I ask why you believe it's a choice?

[True blue (and gold)]

From the article:

 

“The sin would be endorsing that lifestyle," Willis said. “The Bible speaks very plainly about that. You certainly can't condone that lifestyle, whether it's any kind of sin — whether they're shacked up with someone or living in a state of fornication or they're guilty of crimes. You don't condone it."

 

I have no problem with this IF the church has all members publicly denounce all the sins of their family members. Have a son that cheated on his wife? Publicly denounce him. Have a daughter who embezzled money? Publicly denounce her.

 

If this is the only time that this has occurred (which I suspect, the article doesn't say) then the church is being hypocritical.

[PP1]

Can I ask why you believe it's a choice?

 

A lot of it is tied to Biblical principles, but I try not to express those reasons in these kinds of discussions because it carries no weight with the other party. I know and have worked with dozens of homosexuals and a portion of them acknowledge that it is their decision. And of course most feel that their condition always existed.

 

Naturally though, since I believe it is a sin, then I must believe it is a choice.

Since I believe God is perfect, I do not believe he would put a woman into a man's body, which is what I have heard homosexual men say.

 

I believe the decision to be homosexual may in fact be a unconscious or subconscious decision caused by psychosocial factors. I think homosexuals actually believe that they were born that way. I think homosexuals are lying when they claim to have been aware of their sexual preference in K-Grten or 1st Grade because five years olds simply do not think in sexual terms; unless there has possibly been abuse, in which case throws another wrench in the argument.

 

I sense that I have not answered your question very clearly, but it is difficult for me as a minister to not include biblical references on this topic, but I also realize that all someone has to do is day "I do not believe in the Bible" and then there is no way to continue to discuss.

 

But I do not hate anyone. I do not want anyone to go to hell. My sin is not different then their sin. If a homosexual goes to hell, it is not because they are Gay. It is because they are outside Christ. If a heterosexual goes to hell, it is because they too are outside Christ.

 

May I ask you a question as well? You said something to the effect of "I think the mom is more of a christian than the minister." What does that mean? what makes someone "more" of a Christian than someone else? Am I less of a Christian because I believe homosexuality is a sin?

 

Same question I just said it in various ways.

[LIPTON BASH]

A google search will pull up dozens of articles/"studies" that say it's genetic, and dozens that say it's a choice. Basically it's still up for "debate", but IMO common sense tells us it's not a choice.

 

Ask anyone who's gay if they freely choose to be gay. I'd be willing to bet 100 out of 100 will say they always just knew they were, that they never had a choice.

 

Also, along those same lines, when did you make the conscious decision to like women? I know for me personally, it was never a choice, my body's always told me quite clearly I like women. :lol2:

 

Like all habits , traits etc... humans have I've always believed it to be a blend of nature/nurture.

[B-Ball-fan]

I'd like to avoid the tendency that I have to go into book fashion here and explain this topic to the Nth degree, and just say that UKMustangFan has a firm logical grasp on this, and I echo everything he has posted in this thread to a "T"

 

He's telling it like it is.

 

As for "mountain ref" and "Jumper_Dad"

 

You don't have to look any further than me for me to tell you that it is no "Opinion" whatsoever that I am gay not by "Choice", and where would the logic be in me lying about something like that?

 

In my confused youthful mind as a kid before I could really sort things out in my head with a bit of maturity, all I could say when I realized that I was attracted to men and not to woman was:

 

"Why Me God... please let me be straight?"

 

and...

 

"I guess I'm going through a phase and my straightness will kick in any day now",

 

and...

 

"Oh my God, I can't tell anyone about this or the neighborhood thugs will kill me",

 

and...

 

"Perhaps I should just end it all because living this way will be hell in a hateful backward non-compassionate, non-understanding world",

 

and...

 

"I'm a good student and good hearted responsible passive peaceful guy who didn't choose this, society is sadly mistaken and don't know what they're talking about",

 

and...

 

"How is it that if people knew, they would scorn me, but the kids that would bully me would get a pass and be celebrated?"

 

and...

 

"My religion tells me that it's a sin and I'll go to hell, but I didn't choose this?"

 

and...

 

"Maybe if I just kiss a girl it will all change"

 

and...

 

"How come I don't look like what the world has always told me gays look like, so I must be the only straight looking one?"

 

and...

 

"I'm suffocating with this feeling that I can't even tell my family or my closest friends for fear of them hating me and my world crumbling, and that I'll lead a sad and lonely life"

 

and...

 

"Perhaps this is God's way of telling me that I'm supposed to be a priest, but I don't want to be a priest"

 

and...

 

"I can't tell anyone because then no one would hire me for a job, and although I'm a clear headed dependable guy who's reliable, I may never find work and I'll grow up poor"

 

and...

 

"I'm fairly decent at sports and I love sports and have the masculine attributes to hold my own, so there must be some mistake, it makes no sense"

 

and...

 

"My all guy high school placed me in their fantastic art program because of my talents in the placement test, but I better not accept for fear of people in this jock school wondering about me"

 

and...

 

"I better not try out for the high school play although I had leading rolls in grade school for fear of people in this jock school wondering about me"

 

and...

 

"I better date a girl once in a while so my friends don't start wondering about me"

 

and...

 

"Those gays they show on the news in the the gay pride parades look creepy weird, I don't want to have anything to do with that life style, and I don't look anything like them"

 

and...

 

"I don't know how I'm ever going to live with this, but I just better keep it quiet so that I can get a decent job, and if I do find the strength to tell my family or friends and they disown me at least I'll have the money to get my own apartment if my parents throw me out of the house, but I'll just have to hope that my boss never gets word of it",

 

and...

 

"I didn't choose this any more than a straight person chose to be straight"

 

Honestly this should be enough proof for the two of you who I have to believe are competent enough to understand that this is no opinion, and it was not a choice.

 

Any other of the numerous people that I've spoken with in my adulthood who are gay went through almost all the exact same thought processes that I did.

 

It was comforting to know that I was not the only one who did.

 

Of those that I spoke to there are thousands upon thousands of others who did as well.

 

Your example of people trying gayness out for the hell of it are in such minority compared with those who are just this way, no if's, and's or but's, by no choice of their own.

 

Being gay has given me no inside track to prove anything to you scientifically, but for real guys, the proof is in the pudding.

 

If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it's probably a duck. In this scenario would you seriously go out of your way to try to disprove that it's a duck? I'm guessing not, so what's your trip on trying to disprove that gayness is not a choice?

 

again men...

 

What's your trip???

[True blue (and gold)]

B-ball-fan, your personal examples here are eye opening. I'm sorry that you've had such a difficult time getting to a place of acceptance.

[hoops5]

From the article:

 

 

 

I have no problem with this IF the church has all members publicly denounce all the sins of their family members. Have a son that cheated on his wife? Publicly denounce him. Have a daughter who embezzled money? Publicly denounce her.

 

If this is the only time that this has occurred (which I suspect, the article doesn't say) then the church is being hypocritical.

Very true!

[PP1]

Ball fan, I too am sorry to hear of your hardships. I hope time has wasted whatever pain you have

[hoops5]

My 2 favorite posts in this thread is B-Ball-Fan's and PP1.

 

B-Ball-Fan's for his soul bearing description of painful times in his life.

 

PP1's for his very gentle explanation of where he stands on the issue.

 

Both posts are poignant, mature and heartfelt.

[B-Ball-fan]

B-ball-fan, your personal examples here are eye opening. I'm sorry that you've had such a difficult time getting to a place of acceptance.

 

Thank you True Blue (and gold), hoops5, and ADopted ADmiral for your kind words and understanding.

 

To be perfectly honest all that anguish is long long behind me. My parents, family, and close friend showed me understanding and unconditional love when I nervously crossed the line to open up to them about it. Their acceptance fueled the foundation of the rest of my life and gave me the confidence to move forward and live a happy and fulfilling life.

 

I'm happy to say that I feel well adjusted now in my life, and I said all of those things in my last post with the hopes that one day kids don't have to grow up in a world where they feel like they're suffocating and perhaps even want to end it all, or experience all those things that I and so many others have.

 

I wouldn't necessarily recommend gay teens to blow their business wide out in the open to their entire school or neighborhood, as teens by nature can sometimes be cruel and immature, but I'd at least like to see them be able to confide in their mature parents who'd be understanding and support and protect them until they're at least old enough to live a happy productive adult life, minus the suffocating stress.

 

It is with my hopes too that those who I directed my post to can hear me clearly enough to have a growth spurt in their understanding of the topic, and even pat themselves on the back to notice their own breakthrough, though they may have to eat their own egos that told them that they were accurate and justified with the position they've carried for so long on the topic. What I have said here should make them feel they've had more opportunity than they might've had in the past to think it through with thoughts their minds they may have never encountered before, hopefully altering their stance.

 

This is not a plea of acceptance of me... I'm fine with myself and if some people never understand or accept, I can live with that. It's their issue not mine. I just hope that in some small way I can help make the future world a more understanding place. Sometimes I think people, out of misunderstanding, can fear someone who's gay and cringe at the thought of being in their company. Knowledge and understanding can help remove that fear.

[PP1]

I agree. We need to draw conclusions based on objectivity and not emotion.

Edited March 23, 2014 by PP1
I thought my original reply may have been considered harsh

[wxyz]

This sounds like the same thing the Catholic Diocese in Cincinnati did to their teachers' contracts. If they are in a gay relationship or publicly support any type of gay couple, gay rights, etc they lose their job. To be fair the Diocese also did the same for artificial insemination and some other things.

 

Seems to me our more local Catholics are in the same boat as these people in TN. All of it astounds me and not sure how they judge one 'sin' to be worse than another 'sin'. I don't get it.

 

I think the Diocese is going to lose some very good employees either by the employees choice or because they have to fire them. It makes no sense at all when the Catholic schools are struggling as it is. I am excited for the next 10 years....we are going to see homosexuals put on an even playing field. It is inevitable and it is about time.

[Watusi]

Does that make me gay?

We need a poll. I vote yes.