This sounds like the same thing the Catholic Diocese in Cincinnati did to their teachers' contracts. If they are in a gay relationship or publicly support any type of gay couple, gay rights, etc they lose their job. To be fair the Diocese also did the same for artificial insemination and some other things.

 

Seems to me our more local Catholics are in the same boat as these people in TN. All of it astounds me and not sure how they judge one 'sin' to be worse than another 'sin'. I don't get it.

 

I think the Diocese is going to lose some very good employees either by the employees choice or because they have to fire them. It makes no sense at all when the Catholic schools are struggling as it is. I am excited for the next 10 years....we are going to see homosexuals put on an even playing field. It is inevitable and it is about time.

 

But at the same time we cannot accuse the Catholic Church of changing their doctrine. They are standing their ground on issues that they have a set stance on. The same stance they've held for centuries. Despite the changing world, they feel that the church should remain the same. I feel they can be applauded for this.

i vehemently disagree with their stance on this, but they are a private religious institution and can make and enforce the doctrines that they choose.

 

My question to the mother would be. Are you sure this is the faith or set of doctrines you wish to be a member? It is the mother's problem not the church. There are plenty faith based churches that would embrace both she and her daughter.

I'd like to avoid the tendency that I have to go into book fashion here and explain this topic to the Nth degree, and just say that UKMustangFan has a firm logical grasp on this, and I echo everything he has posted in this thread to a "T"

 

He's telling it like it is.

 

As for "mountain ref" and "Jumper_Dad"

 

You don't have to look any further than me for me to tell you that it is no "Opinion" whatsoever that I am gay not by "Choice", and where would the logic be in me lying about something like that?

 

In my confused youthful mind as a kid before I could really sort things out in my head with a bit of maturity, all I could say when I realized that I was attracted to men and not to woman was:

 

"Why Me God... please let me be straight?"

 

and...

 

"I guess I'm going through a phase and my straightness will kick in any day now",

 

and...

 

"Oh my God, I can't tell anyone about this or the neighborhood thugs will kill me",

 

and...

 

"Perhaps I should just end it all because living this way will be hell in a hateful backward non-compassionate, non-understanding world",

 

and...

 

"I'm a good student and good hearted responsible passive peaceful guy who didn't choose this, society is sadly mistaken and don't know what they're talking about",

 

and...

 

"How is it that if people knew, they would scorn me, but the kids that would bully me would get a pass and be celebrated?"

 

and...

 

"My religion tells me that it's a sin and I'll go to hell, but I didn't choose this?"

 

and...

 

"Maybe if I just kiss a girl it will all change"

 

and...

 

"How come I don't look like what the world has always told me gays look like, so I must be the only straight looking one?"

 

and...

 

"I'm suffocating with this feeling that I can't even tell my family or my closest friends for fear of them hating me and my world crumbling, and that I'll lead a sad and lonely life"

 

and...

 

"Perhaps this is God's way of telling me that I'm supposed to be a priest, but I don't want to be a priest"

 

and...

 

"I can't tell anyone because then no one would hire me for a job, and although I'm a clear headed dependable guy who's reliable, I may never find work and I'll grow up poor"

 

and...

 

"I'm fairly decent at sports and I love sports and have the masculine attributes to hold my own, so there must be some mistake, it makes no sense"

 

and...

 

"My all guy high school placed me in their fantastic art program because of my talents in the placement test, but I better not accept for fear of people in this jock school wondering about me"

 

and...

 

"I better not try out for the high school play although I had leading rolls in grade school for fear of people in this jock school wondering about me"

 

and...

 

"I better date a girl once in a while so my friends don't start wondering about me"

 

and...

 

"Those gays they show on the news in the the gay pride parades look creepy weird, I don't want to have anything to do with that life style, and I don't look anything like them"

 

and...

 

"I don't know how I'm ever going to live with this, but I just better keep it quiet so that I can get a decent job, and if I do find the strength to tell my family or friends and they disown me at least I'll have the money to get my own apartment if my parents throw me out of the house, but I'll just have to hope that my boss never gets word of it",

 

and...

 

"I didn't choose this any more than a straight person chose to be straight"

 

Honestly this should be enough proof for the two of you who I have to believe are competent enough to understand that this is no opinion, and it was not a choice.

 

Any other of the numerous people that I've spoken with in my adulthood who are gay went through almost all the exact same thought processes that I did.

 

It was comforting to know that I was not the only one who did.

 

Of those that I spoke to there are thousands upon thousands of others who did as well.

 

Your example of people trying gayness out for the hell of it are in such minority compared with those who are just this way, no if's, and's or but's, by no choice of their own.

 

Being gay has given me no inside track to prove anything to you scientifically, but for real guys, the proof is in the pudding.

 

If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it's probably a duck. In this scenario would you seriously go out of your way to try to disprove that it's a duck? I'm guessing not, so what's your trip on trying to disprove that gayness is not a choice?

 

again men...

 

What's your trip???

 

Thank you True Blue (and gold), hoops5, and ADopted ADmiral for your kind words and understanding.

 

To be perfectly honest all that anguish is long long behind me. My parents, family, and close friend showed me understanding and unconditional love when I nervously crossed the line to open up to them about it. Their acceptance fueled the foundation of the rest of my life and gave me the confidence to move forward and live a happy and fulfilling life.

 

I'm happy to say that I feel well adjusted now in my life, and I said all of those things in my last post with the hopes that one day kids don't have to grow up in a world where they feel like they're suffocating and perhaps even want to end it all, or experience all those things that I and so many others have.

 

I wouldn't necessarily recommend gay teens to blow their business wide out in the open to their entire school or neighborhood, as teens by nature can sometimes be cruel and immature, but I'd at least like to see them be able to confide in their mature parents who'd be understanding and support and protect them until they're at least old enough to live a happy productive adult life, minus the suffocating stress.

 

It is with my hopes too that those who I directed my post to can hear me clearly enough to have a growth spurt in their understanding of the topic, and even pat themselves on the back to notice their own breakthrough, though they may have to eat their own egos that told them that they were accurate and justified with the position they've carried for so long on the topic. What I have said here should make them feel they've had more opportunity than they might've had in the past to think it through with thoughts their minds they may have never encountered before, hopefully altering their stance.

 

This is not a plea of acceptance of me... I'm fine with myself and if some people never understand or accept, I can live with that. It's their issue not mine. I just hope that in some small way I can help make the future world a more understanding place. Sometimes I think people, out of misunderstanding, can fear someone who's gay and cringe at the thought of being in their company. Knowledge and understanding can help remove that fear.

 

Great stuff B-Ball-fan!

 

You don't have to look any further than me for me to tell you that it is no "Opinion" whatsoever that I am gay not by "Choice", and where would the logic be in me lying about something like that?

 

I do not think anyone here hinks that you are lying. Some people simply disagree though.

I do not think anyone here hinks that you are lying. Some people simply disagree though.

 

Wouldn't saying that, in fact be saying he's lying?

 

May I ask you a question as well? You said something to the effect of "I think the mom is more of a christian than the minister." What does that mean? what makes someone "more" of a Christian than someone else? Am I less of a Christian because I believe homosexuality is a sin?

 

Same question I just said it in various ways.

 

Just now saw this for the first time, so I apologize for not responding sooner.

 

Basically, the church is asking the mother to not only condemn what they believe to be a sin, homosexuality, but also to condemn her daughter. I'm sorry, but there is absolutely nothing Christian about turning your back or asking someone to turn their back on their own child. It's simply hateful.

 

The mother has said she doesn't agree with the lifestyle, but it's her daughter, and she's being a Christian IMO by sticking by her and showing her unconditional love despite what she may view as her daughter's flaws.

Just now saw this for the first time, so I apologize for not responding sooner.

 

Basically, the church is asking the mother to not only condemn what they believe to be a sin, homosexuality, but also to condemn her daughter. I'm sorry, but there is absolutely nothing Christian about turning your back or asking someone to turn their back on their own child. It's simply hateful.

 

The mother has said she doesn't agree with the lifestyle, but it's her daughter, and she's being a Christian IMO by sticking by her and showing her unconditional love despite what she may view as her daughter's flaws.

 

So how does that make her "more of a Christian?"

Wouldn't saying that, in fact be saying he's lying?

 

Lying implies dishonesty. If I think he is simply incorrect, then that is not accusing him of being dishonest.

So how does that make her "more of a Christian?"

 

Maybe a better way to say it is, "her actions are more Christian than those of the Church"?

Maybe a better way to say it is, "her actions are more Christian than those of the Church"?

 

I guess I see your point. I just do not think that their are levels of Christianity. I hope there are not. After about 25 years I would still probably be in the lower echelon.

B-Ball-Fan I never said it was or wasn't a choice I said to UKMustangFan, "OK so it is your opinion, you may be right. Like I said I haven't really looked at this much."

 

I too feel for you and the travails you have gone through.

 

As a Christian I believe that all men sin and that all sin is equal and that we are sanctified by the blood of Christ.

But at the same time we cannot accuse the Catholic Church of changing their doctrine. They are standing their ground on issues that they have a set stance on. The same stance they've held for centuries. Despite the changing world, they feel that the church should remain the same. I feel they can be applauded for this.

 

As I had mentioned in my initial post, one of the things that frequently went through my confused mind as a gay child was the questioning within my self-awareness if me being this way was God's way of calling me to be a priest.

 

I was raised by super old school Catholic parents. As a kid I did everything that I was supposed to do as a Catholic, and wouldn't dare do things like miss Mass on Sunday or Holy Days, eat an hour before receiving Communion. I would frequently go to Confession, sang in the Church Choir, volunteered to be a lector to read Bible verses during Mass, or partook in the Mass in various other ways. I very much enjoyed singing out loudly, and couldn't wait to see each day which hymns were to be sung.

 

Along with many of my childhood friends at our Catholic grade school, we were the perfect little Catholic kids, perfect students, and big time teacher's pets to the Nuns.

 

We revered the Nuns and the Priests as being very special and next to God. Our conduct in their presence was impeccable, and wouldn't dare act up in any way that would shock them, or be embarrassing to ourselves. We honored them, and pretty much saw them to be super humans in many ways.

 

When I was 11 a Deacon came into my 5th grade class and gave us a talk on the topic of "Vocations" where he went on to explain that some people are called to be married, some single, and some are called to Holy Orders such as Priests and Nuns. I already realized at 11 that I was gay. I raised my hand and asked him how do you know if God is calling you to Holy Orders. His answer was that you would just know because you would get a sign from God.

 

Over dinner with my parents that evening, I starting crying, and my parents were very concerned about what was troubling me. I told them about the Deacon and what he said, and I told my them that I thought that I was being called to be a Priest. I didn't tell them that I was gay and how I was rationalizing this and thinking that this must be the sign that the Deacon was talking about.

 

My mother was overjoyed and said that it was wonderful. I said that it wasn't wonderful, and she asked why, and I said "Because I don't want to be a priest, and it scares me to think that that's what God wants from me".

 

My parents told me to pray over it, and as I aged it may become more and more apparent what God wants, and if it's to be a Priest maybe by then it wouldn't seem so frightening.

 

I had a couple of Aunts who were Nuns, and a couple of cousins who were Priests, so this wasn't entirely a new thing for some of my relatives, but it was new for my parents as I was the first and only one of my siblings who came to them with this topic.

 

Fast Forward to age 20-30. I had just come out to my parents, and in doing so reminded them of what was going through my mind when I confided in them when I was 11.

 

As a young adult, and curious about the ways of the world that I knew nothing about, I ventured off to find others like me that I could relate to. Luckily I found some good friends, but while doing so my eyes were open to a whole new world that my little sheltered Catholic upbringing knew nothing of. Some good, some not so good. I saw guys who had been tossed to the curb by their parents which did nothing for them but lead them into a life of alcoholism, debauchery, and sadness. Some found the strength and good guidance to rise above, others did not.

 

In my discovery, I also came to the realization of just how many Nuns and Priests were gay. At first I was shocked and highly offended considering a Catholic upbringing that called it a sin, and me growing up with so much inner turmoil.

 

Then, since having my own experience with the "calling", I quickly came to understand that these Priests and Nuns were not trying to pull a fast one over anyone, and they too had grown up just like myself and had an inner battle of what to do about it.

 

Many decided that they were being called. Part of this was two choices: Live a life where you would be a disgrace to your family and your church, or live a life where you would be celebrated by your family and church. I could completely see how many feared the "disgraceful' route and chose to follow the path were they'd be "celebrated".

 

Picture this if you will of numerous gay 20 somethings entering into a seminary at an age their hormones are jumping about just as 20 somethings, gay or straight, jump about.

 

They're confused about the direction they are going into, and now they're around a lot of guys on the very same page living in such close contact with each other.

 

Being young and unknowledgeable of the real world, many thought that they'd be the only one there entering the seminary with their issue, only to come to find that they were now a majority.

 

Some resisted, some didn't. Some thought that they'd miraculously change with ordination. Some continued on to be Priests for now they didn't want to disappoint their parents that were so happy they had a Priest in the family.

 

See... there's very much a human element in action here while the Catholic community treats and crazily expects these people to be super humans free of temptations.

 

Remember when people used to wonder why anyone would really want to be a Priest or a Nun when it seemed like such an odd sacrifice to make with ones life? Well, here's your answer. Not every Priest and Nun is gay for sure, and I have no way of knowing the statistic, but I wouldn't hesitate to say more than 50%, if not more.

 

Mind you, let's not confuse this with child molesting Priests, but it's not a stretch to see that here again many may have gone into the Priesthood with the hopes that they could save face with their families, and put their desires for children behind them, only to find themselves around kids all the time at the schools.

 

The Catholic community, after so many years of revering their Priests and Nuns, act shocked as hell to find out that Father Flannigan (the names have been changed to protect the innocent), and Sister Mary have either been acting out sexually or perhaps have a hidden love interest in their life somewhere.

 

The Church is actually asking for a whole lot when expecting celibacy and absence of love from its Priests and Nuns when sexuality and love is a pretty strong desire in almost every human's life. For anyone straight or gay to be able to really stay celibate is more a rarity than it is the norm. Perhaps with age, some may have their desires wane, but as we all know, although perhaps not as strongly as folks in their teens, 20's and 30's, sexual desires can stay with people well into their senior years.

 

And why is it so important to the married couples in the Catholic Community to have their Priests and Nuns be celibate? What's it to them anyhow? Most Christian churches realistically do not require this of their Ministers.

 

It is my opinion that the Church will not budge from their stance about Homosexuality, because if they did they might have to admit that they've been wrong all along about it, and when you're trying to keep your power over your people about your teachings, there's fear within the Church that it would weaken peoples faith in the Church when the Community comes to realize that they're not infallible.

 

Also, it would perhaps bring to light just about everything that I've explained here about what leads so many Priests and Nuns into Holy Orders to begin with, and the Church is not willing to face itself and approach that reality and truth about itself.

B-Ball-Fan I never said it was or wasn't a choice I said to UKMustangFan, "OK so it is your opinion, you may be right. Like I said I haven't really looked at this much."

 

I too feel for you and the travails you have gone through.

 

As a Christian I believe that all men sin and that all sin is equal and that we are sanctified by the blood of Christ.

 

I dig what you're saying. I'm guilty for having bunched you up in one fell swoop with Mountain Ref. At that point in the thread you were the two on a similar, but not exact team. My apologies for not making it more clear that most of what I said was aimed at him.

I dig what you're saying. I'm guilty for having bunched you up in one fell swoop with Mountain Ref. At that point in the thread you were the two on a similar, but not exact team. My apologies for not making it more clear that most of what I said was aimed at him.

 

No Problem man.

 

I'm not defending Mt Ref I'm sure he can do that himself. But just as you admittedly had much confusion growing up and trying to figure it out, realize there is also confusion on this subject on the other side (not the best way to phrase that). I honestly don't think anyone has all of the answers.

I do not think anyone here hinks that you are lying. Some people simply disagree though.

 

OK... I'll bite...

 

Disagree about what?

 

... and while you're figuring on what to say, I'm pleased that you don't think that I lied, but remember that erections don't lie either. In simple and perhaps bold terms, they are a reaction to what a human male is truly attracted to.

 

You really can't choose or decide what's going to cause this bodily function and reaction.

 

I assume you realize for a man to have an ejaculation with a woman there has to be a sustained erection and penetration. Scientifically it's the way that procreation happens.

 

Not every engagement of sexual activity between a man and a woman leads to procreation and I'm guessing that most would not prefer that pregnancy occur with every sexual exchange, therefore many times a very high percentage of the sexual acts between even married couples are more specifically as an expression of love, and a desire for pleasure.

 

Yes indeed gay couples will not procreate, however they are still humans who desire love and pleasure and have natural urges that steer them towards it.

 

If a man cannot achieve an erection with a woman, but very much can so with another man and the urge to make contact it undeniably strong, why should those men deny themselves that which feels completely natural to them just as heterosexual people feel it is natural to them?

 

I've known gay men who've lived miserable lives by falling to society's expectations by getting married to woman with whom they cannot truly please, and somehow have to fake their sexual act with them by keeping fantasies about men strongly in their minds while they're acting out sexually with their wives for fear of their wives catching on that his so called excitement is being fueled by something other than her.

 

And when the men can't take the lie they're living anymore they bust out of their cage and go act out in ways that even themselves feel sick about, when all they truly want is a loving relationship with a man, and not a quick sexual act with a stranger behind a tree.

 

Lets all just get real and maybe one day everyone straight and gay can just live well adjusted lives and quit all the nutty bull crap that leads people to live lies.

 

It's not an opinion that it's not a choice. It's a fact if there ever was one.

 

I know that it's perplexing to all parties of opposite sides of a topic, to understand how the other side can't see the other side.

 

For this topic, yes indeed, I'm perplexed, for I have a hard time understanding that a clear minded adult can't see and understand this, but PP1... you're in company with so many, so don't feel singled out as the only adult on planet earth that perplexes me in their lack of understanding.

 

Perhaps try to understand that we're talking about millions upon millions of people throughout the world and throughout time that are or were gay. Shouldn't those massive amount of numbers say something about gayness as being as natural as just about anything? We're not talking about misguided people here who've been raised and brainwashed to be criminals and thieves. In many cases we're talking about your next door neighbor who is a responsible citizen and wouldn't hurt a flea.