TN Church Exiles Member Who Won't Publicly Condemn Daughter

[B-Ball-fan]

No Problem man.

 

I'm not defending Mt Ref I'm sure he can do that himself. But just as you admittedly had much confusion growing up and trying to figure it out, realize there is also confusion on this subject on the other side (not the best way to phrase that). I honestly don't think anyone has all of the answers.

 

I can appreciate what you're saying. When you personally haven't had to deal with it, there's little reason to give it much thought, and when one does have to deal with it, you can't but help to think it through in complete detail.

 

... And you're right when you say that you don't think anyone has all of the answers. I certainly don't. I'm just a product of my own nature which I have no real understanding of why, but to avoid going insane had to learn to adapt the best way I knew how.

 

I've never been too keen on the term "Gay Pride"... pride about what? If I'm proud about anything it's things that I've accomplished in life. Nothing against gay, but gay is not an accomplishment. Learning to adapt and be content and happy somewhat is, but really not in the same way I'd be proud of myself for fulfilling a dream or even hitting a half court shot.

 

Gay might be what I am, but it's only part of who I am. And since I didn't choose it anyhow, it's nothing that I can really claim any pride about.

[B-Ball-fan]

PP1... I'm not truly expecting that you'd watch this movie just because I posted it, but if you find the time, there's a chance that you might find it interesting. You might dig it, you might not, but I'm guessing that it will be intriguing to you nonetheless.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys5TyY8RaxI

[PP1]

OK... I'll bite...

 

Disagree about what?

 

... and while you're figuring on what to say, I'm pleased that you don't think that I lied, but remember that erections don't lie either. In simple and perhaps bold terms, they are a reaction to what a human male is truly attracted to.

 

Not true at all. Guys can get erect without thinking about sex.

 

When I said I disagree what I am saying is that I honestly believe that you think you were born a homosexual. I just disagree that you were.

 

I have a cousin who is gay. I still love him very much. He too claims that he was born the way he is. I disagree with him too. I think he was probably born with feminine tendencies (if that is okay to say). He has a distinct voice and accent that some people think is a sign of homosexuality.

 

I believe that he was born with all of those characteristics, so therefore he thinks "I must be Gay"

He is a great guy and I enjoy it when I get to see him.

 

BTW B-Ball-Fan You seem like a good guy too. I bet if we ever sat down at starbucks and shot the breeze, we would get along fine and enjoy each other's company. I hope you have a happy and full life. I am not sure where your spiritual life is, and that is none of my business, but I hope you have a positive relationship with God. I hope that for everyone Gay, Straight, Christian, Muslim, agnostics, Tea Partiers, and I guess Democrats (that was a joke).

[B-Ball-fan]

Not true at all. Guys can get erect without thinking about sex.

 

When I said I disagree what I am saying is that I honestly believe that you think you were born a homosexual. I just disagree that you were.

 

I have a cousin who is gay. I still love him very much. He too claims that he was born the way he is. I disagree with him too. I think he was probably born with feminine tendencies (if that is okay to say). He has a distinct voice and accent that some people think is a sign of homosexuality.

 

I believe that he was born with all of those characteristics, so therefore he thinks "I must be Gay"

He is a great guy and I enjoy it when I get to see him.

 

BTW B-Ball-Fan You seem like a good guy too. I bet if we ever sat down at starbucks and shot the breeze, we would get along fine and enjoy each other's company. I hope you have a happy and full life. I am not sure where your spiritual life is, and that is none of my business, but I hope you have a positive relationship with God. I hope that for everyone Gay, Straight, Christian, Muslim, agnostics, Tea Partiers, and I guess Democrats (that was a joke).

 

I can't say for certain if I was born gay, but at a very very early age I had a self-awarness that I was attracted to men and not to woman. Even at that very very young age I was also aware that I couldn't express this to anyone and that society frowned upon it. I assure you too that I never suffered any sort of child abuse that spawned these feelings.

 

I bottled it up until I finally busted out at the age of 20. I never wanted to be this way, but nothing would change it. Not praying to God, not thinking that one day my natural "straightness" would kick in as my body developed through adolescence.

 

In my teens I tried to play kissy-face with a few girls, just as my other friends were doing, but had zero bodily reaction. Try as I might... ZERO. With my attraction to men it was instant, with no trying. I tried not to be attracted, but it was just the way it was just as a straight boy didn't have to try to be attracted to girls, it was just the way it was.

 

Sure, guys can get erections without thinking about sex. It's called a morning woody, or a pee hard on, or perhaps just a relaxed feeling that brings it on.

 

When it needs to be there for a woman, and you're not attracted to a woman, that's a whole different story. That type of erection shouldn't have to be forced and should come from true attraction, and not "I better get an erection here because society and religion says I need to be straight, even though I'm not". I'd certainly rather have an erection in that situation just like any straight guys does without anything triggering it but a true attraction to the woman.

 

Your cousin most likely is not "thinking" that he's gay, his erections are firmly telling him that he is gay. Something he cannot control.

 

In various posts of yours you've said, "Some gays have told you it was a choice for them", "Some gays have told you they felt like a woman in a man's body", and "Guys can get erect without thinking about sex"...

 

Well you are using statements here that represent a small portion of the story and avoid the bigger picture. I personally have never heard anyone say that they chose to be gay, very few of the men that I've known felt like a woman in a man's body.

 

Sure, there are feminine gays, and those are the ones that society recognizes, but for each one of them, there are many more gay guys that look as straight as it gets. You don't realized this because they're not obviously feminine, but I assure you there are a tremendous about a "straight" looking gay men in this world, and I'd venture to say more so than the obvious feminine ones.

 

You'd be amazed of how many married gay men there are that no one would suspect. You'd be amazed of how many very masculine type gay men there are that no one would suspect.

 

Some men when being around the gay culture start to dress and act like either very feminine gay men, or very over-the-top masculine gay men. That's a cause and effect phenomenon related to acting out like your peers after being in their company for so long. This effects just about everyone of us no matter who we are. Hang out at sporting events day after day and I bet you'd start looking at the ball caps, hoodies and all kinds of spirit wear in attempt to fit in with your surroundings.

 

Even me a gay guy has a fare share of spirit wear that certainly comes in handy for many of the sporting events I attend. Then I've got my theatre appropriate attire for when that need arises. I'm a chameleon in society. One day I'm dressed for the Opera, the next I dress way down to go to the Ghetto Krogers in the grit of the inner-city.

 

You've said here that you have counseled homosexuals. At the risk of knocking and offending you, I fail to see where you are qualified to do so when you obviously do not have a firm grip on the bigger picture, and you try to magnify minor examples collected in your experience to proport them as major realities when they are not. You are filtering through your exposure to homosexuality to only sift through to get examples that support your unknowledgeable stance. This by no means is a fair assessment and can be tossed out with the weekly trash.

 

It bewilders me who put you in the position to do so, for I have to believe that they too are misguided for having the faith in you to be the go-to guy. It's a little similar to having a celibate priest that has no relationship experience counseling married couples.

 

My own personal spirituality has been somewhat that of a roller coaster ride throughout my life. First a Catholic, then an Agnostic when I lost faith in Catholic teachings that seemed not to understand the whole bigger picture, to me thinking that I've no way of knowing anything for sure, to experiencing, for lack of a better word, numerous unexplainable miracles in my life they felt to be granted to me by a higher power, to now a place of spiritual belief in a non-deniminational and non-labeled way, for I've never quite figured out which religion of the many is the one that has God's stamp of approval on it, and a specific label to me is not necessary to have a belief in something.

 

If you didn't quite get that last comment, it perplexes me the division of the different religions in the world, and makes little sense, and no doubt especially when those religions have battled each other, even some under the same Christian faith, however some were Catholics, and some were Protestants.

 

I recall being informed by my so called knowledgeable Catholic elders as a child that Protestants could not go to Heaven, and they'd be stuck in "Purgatory" for eternity. I remember crying about this for fear that my non-Catholic friends could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

I was also informed that children who die at birth before being baptized Catholic would have to remain in "Limbo" for eternity.

 

Does the Catholic Church still profess this? I do not know, but if they don't, how did they conclude this "truth" to begin with, and how did they come to removing it, if in fact they have?

 

As you might've noticed here, I sorta find religions to be laughable and all wet, but that does not mean that I find the unprovable existence of a higher power to be out of the question, for I've have had certain unexplainable experiences that I cannot deny or ignore.

 

I too think that it's possible that we could have a civilized conversation over a cup at Starbucks, but it would probably serve us better to discuss while doing so, the NCAA Final Four rather than get too involved with a discussion much like the one we've had here.

[PP1]

You've said here that you have counseled homosexuals. At the risk of knocking and offending you, I fail to see where you are qualified to do so when you obviously do not have a firm grip on the bigger picture, and you try to magnify minor examples collected in your experience to proport them as major realities when they are not. You are filtering through your exposure to homosexuality to only sift through to get examples that support your unknowledgeable stance. This by no means is a fair assessment and can be tossed out with the weekly trash.

 

It bewilders me who put you in the position to do so, for I have to believe that they too are misguided for having the faith in you to be the go-to guy. It's a little similar to having a celibate priest that has no relationship experience counseling married couples.

 

I hate to break it to you. But half of your post is kind of irrelevant. I have never claimed to be a counselor and have never counseled anyone who was a homosexual. I briefly scanned my posts and have found no reference made by me to counseling. I am not qualified to be a counselor. I believe that unqualified people who try to counsel can do more damage than good.

[B-Ball-fan]

A lot of it is tied to Biblical principles, but I try not to express those reasons in these kinds of discussions because it carries no weight with the other party. I know and have worked with dozens of homosexuals and a portion of them acknowledge that it is their decision. And of course most feel that their condition always existed.

 

Naturally though, since I believe it is a sin, then I must believe it is a choice.

Since I believe God is perfect, I do not believe he would put a woman into a man's body, which is what I have heard homosexual men say.

 

I believe the decision to be homosexual may in fact be a unconscious or subconscious decision caused by psychosocial factors. I think homosexuals actually believe that they were born that way. I think homosexuals are lying when they claim to have been aware of their sexual preference in K-Grten or 1st Grade because five years olds simply do not think in sexual terms; unless there has possibly been abuse, in which case throws another wrench in the argument.

 

I sense that I have not answered your question very clearly, but it is difficult for me as a minister to not include biblical references on this topic, but I also realize that all someone has to do is day "I do not believe in the Bible" and then there is no way to continue to discuss.

 

But I do not hate anyone. I do not want anyone to go to hell. My sin is not different then their sin. If a homosexual goes to hell, it is not because they are Gay. It is because they are outside Christ. If a heterosexual goes to hell, it is because they too are outside Christ.

 

May I ask you a question as well? You said something to the effect of "I think the mom is more of a christian than the minister." What does that mean? what makes someone "more" of a Christian than someone else? Am I less of a Christian because I believe homosexuality is a sin?

 

Same question I just said it in various ways.

 

My apologies as your comment about working with them made me understand it to mean that you had counseled them, and with you discussing the Bible, my misunderstanding continued as I was picturing you to being a minister or of that sort of leanings.

 

With that said, nowhere near half of what I've said is irrelevant, if any at all except for that misunderstanding of mine with what your profession is. Nonetheless all that I said is still very much relevant, but again your falsehood tendency of sifting and exaggerating comes clearly back into play.

 

Why am I spending this much energy with approaching a topic with objectivity on a subjective individual? Good question, as it from past experiences on just about any topic proves futile.

 

It feels a bit like a sensible parent getting caught up and controlled by their child's silly games, until they think a bit more clearly and realize that they may have been swayed into their immature level. Then if the parent gets wise and privy to what the situation is, they quit dignifying the child with a response.

 

Congratulations. For too long of a period here, your tactic swayed me, but nonetheless it gave me an opportunity to examine the topic objectively in the event that anyone else is listening and possibly have been enlightened on things they've not thought too deep about in the past.

 

Learning is not such a bad thing.

 

Give that movie a watch. Still think you might possibly be intrigued by it if you find some free minutes between nap and play time.

[PP1]

My apologies as your comment about working with them made me understand it to mean that you had counseled them, and with you discussing the Bible, my misunderstanding continued as I was picturing you to being a minister or of that sort of leanings.

 

With that said, nowhere near half of what I've said is irrelevant, if any at all except for that misunderstanding of mine with what your profession is. Nonetheless all that I said is still very much relevant, but again your falsehood tendency of sifting and exaggerating comes clearly back into play.

 

Why am I spending this much energy with approaching a topic with objectivity on a subjective individual? Good question, as it from past experiences on just about any topic proves futile.

 

It feels a bit like a sensible parent getting caught up and controlled by their child's silly games, until they think a bit more clearly and realize that they may have been being swayed into their immature level. Then if the parent gets wise and privy to what the situation is, they quit dignifying the child with a response.

 

Congratulations. For too long of a period here, your tactic swayed me, but nonetheless it gave me an opportunity to examine the topic objectively in the event that anyone else is listening and possibly have been enlightened on things they've not thought too deep about in the past.

 

Learning is not such a bad thing.

 

Give that movie a watch. Still think you might possibly be intrigued by it if you find some free minutes between nap and play time.

 

You seem to be getting a little irritated. We can let this one go. But when I said"work with" I only meant I worked with several homosexuals at nay restaurants when I was in college, lived in the dorm with some at NKY, and acted with them on a few small weak theatre productions.

[True blue (and gold)]

B-ball-fan, I always find your insight into these topics to be eye opening for me. Thanks for having the courage to speak.

[Dlbdonn]

I have always loved women. But I can say I find a guy good looking. Tom Brady is a good looking guy. Does that make me gay? NO

It makes you ambivalent .

[B-Ball-fan]

B-ball-fan, I always find your insight into these topics to be eye opening for me. Thanks for having the courage to speak.

 

Thanks True blue (and gold), I appreciate your kind approval.

 

Outside of some minimal discussion over the years with family and friends, much of what I've relayed here are things from my observations and own personal experiences that have spawned analysis that I've rarely ever shared with anyone. I without a doubt have said more here than I've ever said to anyone even my own family and friends.

 

It is very true that most who've never been challenged by much to ever think to deep into this topic have not had the benefit of drawing any conclusions for lack of points of reference. It is only by my own experience that challenged me to give it as much thought as I have over the years.

 

Before I came busting out of the closet here on BGP about a year ago, I had pretty much dismissed the whole topic anyhow for there was not much more my mind felt pulled to ponder.

 

I'm a bit (shocker alert) OCD anyhow (self-diagnosed), so in many cases I've probably dissected this topic perhaps even more so than the average gay person might've, although through their experiences, I've no doubt that many have still given it much thought from a personal and general socio-cultural stand point, considering that they're walking in certain shoes that inevitably have made them do so.

 

Much of their upbringing within the society that all of us gay and straight have been raised under still very much resides in the majority of them. Not saying that's a bad thing, but many humans feel the need to live by labels and feel deeply rooted in some sort of unification with others. In doing so, many folks who grew up gay while knowing not of a particular gay culture that existed, sought out to find people to relate to, and the obvious beginning point for that discovery outside of their own background and personality is in gay clubs.

 

In doing so, some can at first experience a sense of nervousness all the while of feeling as if they've finally found an understanding safe haven, and eventually to fit in start to gravitate to certain mannerisms, styles and ways of talking and labeling oneself to be included with the pack, sometimes making their own individuality get lost somewhere in the mix, all the while taking on the traits of other.

 

This seems to be where a certain "gay culture look and behavior is spawned", which at times can be a big turn off to the general public. Then by living under that persona they perpetrate a certain image of what it means to be gay, unknowingly to themselves isolating themselves from the general public as being something drastically different from them. They weren't while growing up, but now they've joined a club so to speak where they evolve to taking on a certain sheen, that of sorts, tells the outside world that they are "Here and Queer So Get Used to it". If that works for them fine, but to me it doesn't appear that they're doing themselves any favors when desiring acceptance.

 

If there are some particular things about gay culture that turns the general public off, I'm right there with them. Personally, I prefer to gain a sense of acceptance my merely just being myself without trying to fit into the gay world and following certain trends, attitudes, and behaviors. I'm pretty certain that I'm not the only one that feels that way, but the ones perpetrating the "Image" are the ones who are visible to the outside world.

 

In some respects I would be ostracized by a portion of the gay culture for thinking this way for they might feel that I'm square or sucking up to the straight world. It's not that at all. I was not who they are when growing up, so I see no reason for me to alter my behavior for the sake of being like them now.

 

I have shared this thought with some of my gay friends who appeared to be drawn to certain gay trends, and thankfully I could see a light go off in their heads that told them they perhaps have lost track of who they really were, and seemed delighted to once again revisit the person they once were. They ultimately appreciated this revelation, and it became apparent that they blossomed within their own individuality, didn't feel the need to wear their gayness on their sleeves, and seemed thankful to me for helping to give the green light to go ahead and just be themselves once more.

 

This is not to suggest that one should be a loner, distant themselves from friendships, try too hard to be different, but to merely be themselves which is ultimately a much easier avenue to take anyhow.

 

This is not to say that I never find myself in social situations where there's a significant amount of "gay culture" types around me, but it is rare for I don't feel that it's a big part of my life, or have a big desire to frequent that atmosphere, or feel a huge need that my life and entertainment depends on it. If I'm at a gay disco, I just embrace it for what it is and do what I can to have an enjoyable evening by dancing or chatting folks up, or even cracking up laughing to a drag show or something.

 

At the risk of labeling myself, I'm more or less a rock club kind of guy that digs seeing cool bands, but with that said the next night you might find me taking in performances of a more polished nature, and the next at a sporting event. Variety is the spice of life if you will.

 

In my lifetime of hearing the general public express their nonacceptance and all kinds of certain negativity towards gays, and many times when they didn't even realize that one was standing among them, I've usually had to just take it to avoid confrontation, although my mind might've been full of poignant things to say, I was aware that their shocked reaction would overrule anything that I might have to say and my poignancy would be lost on them.

 

As I finish this chapter of my book here on BGP, I now as I have before, questioned myself that I might be coming off as if this is the only topic that I ever think about. I feel safe in knowing that it is not, and am thankful to those here that allow me to express what's on my mind. You all know that no matter the topic, I tend to have a lot to say, so with this topic, me going on about it forever is really not much different than how I approach just about anything discussed here.

 

I must admit that it's refreshing to have the liberty to say all the things to all the people here with their different variances of stances, no matter what, on the matter. Whether or not everyone agrees, It's still a load off my mind whereas in the past I would typically just have to for the sake of avoiding trouble, keep my mouth shut.

 

Here, I feel that in some ways, all my hopes that I've ever had of folks coming to see things a bit differently than they have before can at least be exercised at an attempt to create results. In others words, I'm just spitting out words to see where they splatter.

 

No one else here on BGP has ever come out as gay, so I guess that I've anointed myself as the "gay poster boy" so to speak, or one of the few people to bring to light a more acceptant angle on it all.

 

Thanks again for anyone who's given me or have recognized this freedom for me, and if anyone bypasses or dismisses what I have to say for they might need too much time to entertain these thought, let me say that I can't blame you.

 

Is it a bit overkill? Yeah... I'd say that I'd have to agree with you there.

[Content1]

I'd venture to say if this TN church followed the example of understanding, education, insight, and communication in this thread it would never have made the news in the first place.