I will not change my position. You guys may scoff and eschew all you like. There is no good to come of it, and frankly, we should be outraged that this is the "go-to" answer, instead of the absolute last resort. As so many of you point out, guns don't kill people, people kill people. And you want to give people who are not trained intensively on an ongoing, accountable basis guns, in an environment with the most vulnerable. And not one mention has been made in training the teachers in crisis situations and crisis management.

Do you believe alcohol should be legal to sell? What good comes out of drinking alcohol excepted the analgesic response by the body and elimination inhibitions and of brain cells every time alcohol is consumed...surely you think that alcohol should be outlawed...right? How about smoking there is no good reason to smoke other than addiction, no benefit to it...so you are against these too?

 

I am not comparing firearms to drinking or smoking, just your underlying point seems to be that there is no reasonable need for anyone to own firearms and that you never would. Well at least firearms can be used to protect your family, provide food for your family and as a form of entertainment that leaves no long lasting effects on the user when used correctly.

I will not change my position. You guys may scoff and eschew all you like. There is no good to come of it, and frankly, we should be outraged that this is the "go-to" answer, instead of the absolute last resort. As so many of you point out, guns don't kill people, people kill people. And you want to give people who are not trained intensively on an ongoing, accountable basis guns, in an environment with the most vulnerable. And not one mention has been made in training the teachers in crisis situations and crisis management.

Hold on a second here, RM. You make the claim that we somehow act as though we are more practical or "smarter" about the issue than you, then you make the claim no good can come of arming teachers. Who's really acting like they're being more practical or smarter about the discussion? It's been working in Utah, so, we'll disagree. You can also scoff and eschew all you like at our ideas, but I don't see you presenting anything that's a better idea or plan as of yet. Also, no one said they didn't want teachers to undergo stringent training in crisis situations and crisis management either, so you jumped to a conclusion there. I know I'd be fine with that sort of training.

 

Honestly, to me, much of what you've said in this thread is based on emotion and fear. I find that to be true of our president and members of congress that want bans as well. That's exactly what got us the worthless piece of legislation in the 90s that didn't do a thing to stop these situations from happening and only infringed on the law abiding people of this country. That whole "assault weapons" ban was a joke , was based on fear, emotions, showed lack of any gun knowledge or education of firearms and helped no one.

In a nutshell, I don't trust people who feel that they need to carry a gun to protect themselves. Regardless of whether I am armed or others are armed, those with ill intent will do their deed. Now you want me to feel safe amongst a group of people so nervous and looking for trouble that anything can cause them to draw guns? Keep in mind, I had a gun almost drawn on me in the middle of the day because I bumped into them exiting a bus. Nope....I will not go to public places knowing anyone in there could have a gun.

 

Kind of arrogant for you to state that people who arm themselves are either nervous or looking for trouble that will enable them to draw their guns. You seriously believe most gun owners who carry want to start a gun fight? Don't ask for their protection that is fine. But you shouldn't infringe on someone's right to protect themselves and their family if they deem it necessary. Maybe a father of 7 has had a gun pulled straight to his face. Maybe it was a very, very close call. In order to protect his children, and prevent them from becoming fatherless, he packs a gun. Yes. What a nervous wreck he must be. I don't know where you have lived, but some fathers have to go through this on a daily basis. They should have every outlet and form of defense possible.

Guys, it's not arrogance or emotion. It's a dead certainty that we will not be able to go back, and it will open the door to even more potential disaster.

 

Kind of arrogant for you to state that people who arm themselves are either nervous or looking for trouble that will enable them to draw their guns. You seriously believe most gun owners who carry want to start a gun fight? Don't ask for their protection that is fine. But you shouldn't infringe on someone's right to protect themselves and their family if they deem it necessary. Maybe a father of 7 has had a gun pulled straight to his face. Maybe it was a very, very close call. In order to protect his children, and prevent them from becoming fatherless, he packs a gun. Yes. What a nervous wreck he must be. I don't know where you have lived, but some fathers have to go through this on a daily basis. They should have every outlet and form of defense possible.

 

Just what we need. Nervous people with guns.

Hold on a second here, RM. You make the claim that we somehow act as though we are more practical or "smarter" about the issue than you, then you make the claim no good can come of arming teachers. Who's really acting like they're being more practical or smarter about the discussion? It's been working in Utah, so, we'll disagree. You can also scoff and eschew all you like at our ideas, but I don't see you presenting anything that's a better idea or plan as of yet. Also, no one said they didn't want teachers to undergo stringent training in crisis situations and crisis management either, so you jumped to a conclusion there. I know I'd be fine with that sort of training.

 

Honestly, to me, much of what you've said in this thread is based on emotion and fear. I find that to be true of our president and members of congress that want bans as well. That's exactly what got us the worthless piece of legislation in the 90s that didn't do a thing to stop these situations from happening and only infringed on the law abiding people of this country. That whole "assault weapons" ban was a joke , was based on fear, emotions, showed lack of any gun knowledge or education of firearms and helped no one.

 

I didn't say anything about bans. I have suggested several things such as automatic charges for owners of guns discharged by children who got them however. I am for making it a requirement to register your guns annually. Make it mandatory that safety training is required annually. Schools can be protected with other safety measures, that although some of you don't believe will work, I do.

Do you believe alcohol should be legal to sell? What good comes out of drinking alcohol excepted the analgesic response by the body and elimination inhibitions and of brain cells every time alcohol is consumed...surely you think that alcohol should be outlawed...right? How about smoking there is no good reason to smoke other than addiction, no benefit to it...so you are against these too?

 

I am not comparing firearms to drinking or smoking, just your underlying point seems to be that there is no reasonable need for anyone to own firearms and that you never would. Well at least firearms can be used to protect your family, provide food for your family and as a form of entertainment that leaves no long lasting effects on the user when used correctly.

 

My dog protects my family and I have to register him and license him. Some types of dogs are banned because they are too dangerous. And we require that owners of dogs are responsible or face criminal charges for their mishandling that leads to injury of another.

 

Guns don't belong in schools.

Nervous gun enthusiast or paranoid statist.

 

You're not making a good case fpr yourself, RM.

My dog protects my family and I have to register him and license him. Some types of dogs are banned because they are too dangerous. And we require that owners of dogs are responsible or face criminal charges for their mishandling that leads to injury of another.

 

Guns don't belong in schools.

Pretty sure owners of guns are liable also if they act in an irresponsible way...not really sure what point your making here. What dog is banned btw? Is there a breed that I can't legally own?

 

This is from a little while back, not recent.

Guys, it's not arrogance or emotion. It's a dead certainty that we will not be able to go back, and it will open the door to even more potential disaster.

 

Mass shootings have been happening in gun free zones and your grand idea is to make guns harder to get and keep in place a law that contributed to the deaths of so many. Unbelievable.

My dog protects my family and I have to register him and license him. Some types of dogs are banned because they are too dangerous. And we require that owners of dogs are responsible or face criminal charges for their mishandling that leads to injury of another.

 

Guns don't belong in schools.

A criminal can shoot and kill your dog easily, then what do you do?

 

I'd say it's more like some dogs are banned because their owners are too dangerous in what they've trained them to do.

 

When criminals are going into schools with guns, then guns certainly belong there for protection and to stop these maniacs. Until you or someone else can give us a foolproof way to secure schools, I see it as a worthy line of defense. Again, from the article TB&G posted. The average number of people shot in a mass shooting event when the shooter is stopped by law enforcement: 14. The average number of people shot in a mass shooting event when the shooter is stopped by civilians: 2.5. Seems pretty logical to me.

What questions haven't seen I answered?

 

Here are some.

 

I haven't scoffed. I've only asked questions. I value and am interested in your opinion, but I guess that you don't need to answer my questions if you don't want to.

 

I will add that teachers at my school are trained in a variety of crisis management situations, including what to do in the event of a person entering the building with intent to do harm. I'd be interested in hearing what additional/specific training you would want us to have.

 

 

 

I never stated that I was protecting anyone. I don't carry my gun in public...yet.

 

What I did say is that someone that does carry usually is willing to protect everyone in their vicinity, whether they ask for it or not, even though it makes them a greater target, once they return fire. But at least they aren't a sitting target.

 

I would never in a million years want someone to carry that does NOT want to do so. I would never want people in certain areas, such as schools, to be able to carry at will without being highly trained and frequently evaluated.

 

I have been teaching for 17 years. That's through Heath High School, Columbine, Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook and 35 other school shootings. I find myself all too frequently going over my plan of defense for my students in the event that our school came under attack by a gunman. I can't have a gun, so as a chemistry teacher, I have some other creative lines of defense and I would gladly put myself in harms way to protect each and every one of my kids, whether their parents would ask me to or not. I hope that the teachers of my nieces and nephews are prepared to do the same, though in most classrooms, beyond throwing a tape dispenser or a history book, I'm not sure what they could do. I guess they could be like professor at Virginia Tech that held the door long enough that several of his students escaped through windows, before the shooter gained entrance and killed the professor and remaining students.

 

I would ask of you, if you don't promote an armed presence in my (or any) school, how would you recommend that we protect our students against a gunman?

 

Wow. I never said anyone was smarter or more practical. I was just trying to understand how you would feel safer in a place where only criminals had guns.

Pretty sure owners of guns are liable also if they act in an irresponsible way...not really sure what point your making here. What dog is banned btw? Is there a breed that I can't legally own?

 

I have looked for accidental deaths involving CCL/CCW in real situation. So far the only thing found is an accidental death during CCL training where an instructor was trying to teach a very difficult maneuver where you draw a gun using your 'weak' hand and brace on your chest.

 

But I can not find an incident where a CCL has drawn and killed bystanders. There must be 1 or 2 but they seem rare.

Guys, it's not arrogance or emotion. It's a dead certainty that we will not be able to go back, and it will open the door to even more potential disaster.

 

You're not really making any sense in this debate RM. Seriously.