Somebody help educate me on the other side here?

[stick1]

I live in Eastern KY in a town of 2,000. I've got a Master's Degree as a Principal, taught/coached football. Do Pharmaceutical Sales + have a real estate license.On Grand Jury right now. Over the years I've gotten to experience a lot of different walks of life and build relationships with a lot of diverse people. There's a lot of topics on my mind but this one is the most important to me.I'm pretty open minded to learning so help me out here.

I think Obama has been awful and I thought Bush was awful. I could care less about color of skin or political party. I think they are all crooked and spin things. I go by what I see with my own two eyes. I see lazy people every day abusing our welfare system and being let go by our justice system. I also see people I grew up with that are blue collar people losing jobs left and right in the coal business. Mines are being shut down. Permits are becoming almost impossible to get. The power plant in my hometown employes about 250 people. The EPA has come in with some bogus decision that the plant has to have scrubbers put in that cost a fortune or shut down. Cleaning up the air by getting these scrubber is about like trying to say that you can drain Cumberland Lake and rid most of the Earth of bodies of water! China is using a TON of coal with no restrictions! It's booming over seas! So you cut all these coal jobs. Lets take a look at what I see each day. These 250 families now have to move to find jobs because there are NONE here! Miners have to leave. Coal truck owners and drivers loose their jobs. Train and barge jobs are cut even though they are shipping to other countries. Construction jobs. Wives of all these men (our teachers etc have to move). There is NO PLAN in place for these people. They have 2 options. Move or get on welfare. You are cutting 1/4 of the jobs in KY. Do you realize how many people will go on welfare for their families to survive? Guess what all those people that lost jobs will no longer be paying taxes! What's that going to do to the rest of the people in the state that are working? When this crushes Frankfort what's that going to do for our schools etc? What's the crime going to be like with all these people unemployed in a judicial system that is already pushing to keep people out of jail?

Who are my kids that are 8+5 going to grow up with here?

The clean air bull is garbage. It won't put a dent in clean air. I'll humor you though. So you want clean air. Where is your power coming from now when you get rid of coal? Natural gas you say? That's awesome for Mayor Bloomberg in NY who have helped with the Sierra Club to fund 500 million dollars to shut down coal plants! Why does he have so much interest? Maybe because in May it was passed that the biggest natural gas line in America will be built under the Hudson River. That makes him look like a hero. Thousands of jobs for NY! What's that do for KY? What have you seen in place for a plan for jobs to all the people that already have good jobs here but are being forced out? Oh by the way to get that gas it takes a process using chemicals called "fracking". What are the long term effects of fracking with the chemicals+water used? The answer is nobody knows!

You want to go the solar route? Where are those jobs? Maybe want to research Solera out in California where $500 million was wasted and now none of those people have jobs!

I'm trying to understand why voting for Obama makes any sense at all for anybody in KY especially Eastern KY. I could care less about promises from either side because they are full of crap! What I do know is what I'm seeing with my own eyes and that is that Obama is driving this area and eventually our state into a black hole!

[Hearsay]

I live in Eastern KY in a town of 2,000. I've got a Master's Degree as a Principal, taught/coached football. Do Pharmaceutical Sales + have a real estate license.On Grand Jury right now. Over the years I've gotten to experience a lot of different walks of life and build relationships with a lot of diverse people. There's a lot of topics on my mind but this one is the most important to me.I'm pretty open minded to learning so help me out here.

I think Obama has been awful and I thought Bush was awful. I could care less about color of skin or political party. I think they are all crooked and spin things. I go by what I see with my own two eyes. I see lazy people every day abusing our welfare system and being let go by our justice system. I also see people I grew up with that are blue collar people losing jobs left and right in the coal business. Mines are being shut down. Permits are becoming almost impossible to get. The power plant in my hometown employes about 250 people. The EPA has come in with some bogus decision that the plant has to have scrubbers put in that cost a fortune or shut down. Cleaning up the air by getting these scrubber is about like trying to say that you can drain Cumberland Lake and rid most of the Earth of bodies of water! China is using a TON of coal with no restrictions! It's booming over seas! So you cut all these coal jobs. Lets take a look at what I see each day. These 250 families now have to move to find jobs because there are NONE here! Miners have to leave. Coal truck owners and drivers loose their jobs. Train and barge jobs are cut even though they are shipping to other countries. Construction jobs. Wives of all these men (our teachers etc have to move). There is NO PLAN in place for these people. They have 2 options. Move or get on welfare. You are cutting 1/4 of the jobs in KY. Do you realize how many people will go on welfare for their families to survive? Guess what all those people that lost jobs will no longer be paying taxes! What's that going to do to the rest of the people in the state that are working? When this crushes Frankfort what's that going to do for our schools etc? What's the crime going to be like with all these people unemployed in a judicial system that is already pushing to keep people out of jail?

Who are my kids that are 8+5 going to grow up with here?

The clean air bull is garbage. It won't put a dent in clean air. I'll humor you though. So you want clean air. Where is your power coming from now when you get rid of coal? Natural gas you say? That's awesome for Mayor Bloomberg in NY who have helped with the Sierra Club to fund 500 million dollars to shut down coal plants! Why does he have so much interest? Maybe because in May it was passed that the biggest natural gas line in America will be built under the Hudson River. That makes him look like a hero. Thousands of jobs for NY! What's that do for KY? What have you seen in place for a plan for jobs to all the people that already have good jobs here but are being forced out? Oh by the way to get that gas it takes a process using chemicals called "fracking". What are the long term effects of fracking with the chemicals+water used? The answer is nobody knows!

You want to go the solar route? Where are those jobs? Maybe want to research Solera out in California where $500 million was wasted and now none of those people have jobs!

I'm trying to understand why voting for Obama makes any sense at all for anybody in KY especially Eastern KY. I could care less about promises from either side because they are full of crap! What I do know is what I'm seeing with my own eyes and that is that Obama is driving this area and eventually our state into a black hole!

 

I feel you. I am general counsel for a local electric cooperative, and we have been monitoring the coal embargo for many years. Our carrier was required to install ridiculously expensive scrubbers, that only cut down on emissions about 15-20% in reality. The result in your electric bill, which here was the lowest in the country in 2008, will multiply your bill between 80-120% within 5 years.

 

I can only offer one equivocation and one solace: Equivocation: we've known it was coming for years, so the failure to plan is somewhat on us; Solace: Kentucky has voted heavily Republican, and is doing about all it can do.

[Bluegrasscard]

The anti-coal movement is intense - especially on the west coast. In 2008 I was out there for almost 8 months in the Silicon Valley area. During a discussion on the subject of cost of living and electricity rates I pointed that our rate in Kentucky was about half their rate in California - 5.5 cents vs. 10 cents per kW. When I mentioned it was because we use cheap coal to fire most of our plants you would have thought that I was a representative of Lucifer with their reaction. Much of the country is truly brain-washed on 'clean energy'. And unfortunately most of the country still looks down on the hillbillies - as Bob Beckel did yesterday before the debate.

[BIG BLACK JACK]

I live in Eastern KY in a town of 2,000. I've got a Master's Degree as a Principal, taught/coached football. Do Pharmaceutical Sales + have a real estate license.On Grand Jury right now. Over the years I've gotten to experience a lot of different walks of life and build relationships with a lot of diverse people. There's a lot of topics on my mind but this one is the most important to me.I'm pretty open minded to learning so help me out here.

I think Obama has been awful and I thought Bush was awful. I could care less about color of skin or political party. I think they are all crooked and spin things. I go by what I see with my own two eyes. I see lazy people every day abusing our welfare system and being let go by our justice system. I also see people I grew up with that are blue collar people losing jobs left and right in the coal business. Mines are being shut down. Permits are becoming almost impossible to get. The power plant in my hometown employes about 250 people. The EPA has come in with some bogus decision that the plant has to have scrubbers put in that cost a fortune or shut down. Cleaning up the air by getting these scrubber is about like trying to say that you can drain Cumberland Lake and rid most of the Earth of bodies of water! China is using a TON of coal with no restrictions! It's booming over seas! So you cut all these coal jobs. Lets take a look at what I see each day. These 250 families now have to move to find jobs because there are NONE here! Miners have to leave. Coal truck owners and drivers loose their jobs. Train and barge jobs are cut even though they are shipping to other countries. Construction jobs. Wives of all these men (our teachers etc have to move). There is NO PLAN in place for these people. They have 2 options. Move or get on welfare. You are cutting 1/4 of the jobs in KY. Do you realize how many people will go on welfare for their families to survive? Guess what all those people that lost jobs will no longer be paying taxes! What's that going to do to the rest of the people in the state that are working? When this crushes Frankfort what's that going to do for our schools etc? What's the crime going to be like with all these people unemployed in a judicial system that is already pushing to keep people out of jail?

Who are my kids that are 8+5 going to grow up with here?

The clean air bull is garbage. It won't put a dent in clean air. I'll humor you though. So you want clean air. Where is your power coming from now when you get rid of coal? Natural gas you say? That's awesome for Mayor Bloomberg in NY who have helped with the Sierra Club to fund 500 million dollars to shut down coal plants! Why does he have so much interest? Maybe because in May it was passed that the biggest natural gas line in America will be built under the Hudson River. That makes him look like a hero. Thousands of jobs for NY! What's that do for KY? What have you seen in place for a plan for jobs to all the people that already have good jobs here but are being forced out? Oh by the way to get that gas it takes a process using chemicals called "fracking". What are the long term effects of fracking with the chemicals+water used? The answer is nobody knows!

You want to go the solar route? Where are those jobs? Maybe want to research Solera out in California where $500 million was wasted and now none of those people have jobs!

I'm trying to understand why voting for Obama makes any sense at all for anybody in KY especially Eastern KY. I could care less about promises from either side because they are full of crap! What I do know is what I'm seeing with my own eyes and that is that Obama is driving this area and eventually our state into a black hole!

 

My best advice is move. I've said basically the other thing in another thread, but I will reiterate it here.

 

The coal industry always comes and goes in spurts. My family used to live probably somewhere close to where you are now, and decided that it would be best to get out of that region for lack of opportunity. Drive around Pikeville, Prestonsburg, and Paintsville and tell me how many abandoned bulldozers you see sitting in empty fields on the side of the road, or land that has been stripped and deserted overnight. I understand the coal industry is a big employer in EKY, and until something comes in to replace it I'll stand by the industry. But with that being said I would like to see the area better taken care of referring both to landscape and the people. The only public college in the entire area is Morehead State. No idea why Pikeville College is a private school, none. You are in the poorest region of the state, and have a private institute plopped down right in the middle of it. Makes zero sense. For EKY to grow they need better education, and I think that would shift if both Cumberlands and Pikeville College would be become public institutes. I feel like the area needs more manufacturing jobs as well. If these kids are not going to continue their education after high school then provide good jobs for them that require nothing more than a GED.

[acemona]

My best advice is move. I've said basically the other thing in another thread, but I will reiterate it here.

 

The coal industry always comes and goes in spurts. My family used to live probably somewhere close to where you are now, and decided that it would be best to get out of that region for lack of opportunity. Drive around Pikeville, Prestonsburg, and Paintsville and tell me how many abandoned bulldozers you see sitting in empty fields on the side of the road, or land that has been stripped and deserted overnight. I understand the coal industry is a big employer in EKY, and until something comes in to replace it I'll stand by the industry. But with that being said I would like to see the area better taken care of referring both to landscape and the people. The only public college in the entire area is Morehead State. No idea why Pikeville College is a private school, none. You are in the poorest region of the state, and have a private institute plopped down right in the middle of it. Makes zero sense. For EKY to grow they need better education, and I think that would shift if both Cumberlands and Pikeville College would be become public institutes. I feel like the area needs more manufacturing jobs as well. If these kids are not going to continue their education after high school then provide good jobs for them that require nothing more than a GED.

 

You can't have more mfg. jobs without better infrastructure and infrastructure is government money and republicans don't believe in spending gov't money so no more infrastructure and no mfg. jobs

[2 Humped Camel]

I guess I will try and bite. I will begin asking how this can be tied to Obama? The clean air act was passed in the 70's there have been a few ammendments the last of which was 2008 before Obama took office. As Hersay mentioned the requirements are not new. On the environmental side we don't even have to argue the global warming aspect which more than half the people on this site will deny anyway, but clean air standards save lives. They prevent all kinds of breathing problems in babies, children and the elderly. At what point is cheap electricty worth it. I think coal is quite honestly looking for a scape goat, the coal is harder to get (cost more) and it's being replaced by products that are cheaper to obtain like wind, solar and to a greater extent natural gas which has it's own environmental problems. Burning coal does have a negative impact on our environment and the health of our citizens so the governement is enforcing the law to make sure it is bruned within the proper emmission standards. I don't know the answer to the lost jobs, but this has happened in the past with the steel industry. I believe instead of throwing up their hands and getting on welfare a better approach would be to take advantage of some of the job training and education programs that the government offers and more importantly stressing the importance of post secondary or trade school education to their children so they aren't left counting on a coal mining job being there. Blame Obama if you want to but I fail to see how he's responsible for legislation he didn't pass nor a simple shift away from an energy source that is old, dirty and costly.

http://www.epa.gov/air/sect812/feb11/summaryreport.pdf

[spindoc]

Wind. Joke.

[Bluegrasscard]

Wind. Joke.

 

Is this the future of Britain's 'wind rush'? | Mail Online

 

'Green' debacle: Tens of thousands of abandoned wind turbines now litter American landscape

 

"But high maintenance costs, high rates of failure, and fluctuating weather conditions that affect energy production render wind turbines expensive and inefficient, which is why more than 14,000 of them have since been abandoned."

Emphasis added.

 

Who would have thought giant propellers would have a high rate of failure and be expensive to manage and fix. I bet people from the aviation industry were laughing at these things all along.

[True blue (and gold)]

Please enlighten me as to how wind energy is a joke.

[Clyde]

The question "what is the plan" was asked. The "plan" for those in EKY in the coal business had better be to have an alternative or be ready to go on welfare. The use of coal is going to go down and down over the next decades.

 

This issue is not on anyone who will suffer besides those that will suffer. They know it's coming. They have to make the hard choice and deal with it or go on welfare.

[True blue (and gold)]

Is this the future of Britain's 'wind rush'? | Mail Online

 

'Green' debacle: Tens of thousands of abandoned wind turbines now litter American landscape

 

"But high maintenance costs, high rates of failure, and fluctuating weather conditions that affect energy production render wind turbines expensive and inefficient, which is why more than 14,000 of them have since been abandoned."

Emphasis added.

 

Who would have thought giant propellers would have a high rate of failure and be expensive to manage and fix. I bet people from the aviation industry were laughing at these things all along.

 

Just like any other energy industry in it's birth, there is a learning curve that will be navigated.

[Getslow]

Please enlighten me as to how wind energy is a joke.

 

It doesn't work particularly well; extremely susceptible to mechanical failure. The technology just isn't very good.

 

Personally, I've always been more of a conservationist than an environmentalist and I really hate wind farms. They take up a ton of space and the giant turbines dominate dominate whatever place they're in. It's like someone tore out an ages-old forest and replaced it with a orchard of mechanical trees. When I think about it like that... it's almost horrifying.

[mcpapa]

I've said it a thousand times.

 

Go nuclear.

[Clyde]

I've said it a thousand times.

 

Go nuclear.

 

Has a lot of value but it takes a long time to get going.

 

With that, we have to look long-term here.

[True blue (and gold)]

It doesn't work particularly well; extremely susceptible to mechanical failure. The technology just isn't very good.

 

Personally, I've always been more of a conservationist than an environmentalist and I really hate wind farms. They take up a ton of space and the giant turbines dominate dominate whatever place they're in. It's like someone tore out an ages-old forest and replaced it with a orchard of mechanical trees. When I think about it like that... it's almost horrifying.

 

The technology isn't good yet. The industry is in it's infancy.

 

I guess that it depends on where you are at, but I don't think that wind farms are visually displeasing. In western Colorado, for example, an area that I've traveled for years, the landscape prior to the installation of wind turbines was desolate and uninteresting. The wind turbines that have been installed make the trip through that area a bit more enjoyable. In addition, the cattle grazing that occurred there prior still continues. Farmers can have a combination wind/cattle farm, which I think is a particularly good use of land in an area that has a great deal of wind.