SilverShadow

Ken Wilfong's curve and then his fast ball was simply overpowering. I believe his ERA during his junior/senior year were off the charts. Jim Minshall from NewCath may have been the most intimidating. 6'-5" in 1966 with a mid 90 fast ball.

John "Steak and Shake" Schlarman did a great job and Chad "What is a Steak and Shake" Scott was great too!

I'm confused but you have wrong perceptions?:thumb: I guess that is where the "bill by the hour" practice starts.:lol: Somewhere the state data sits. Will try to find something. I know in NorKY the trend growth is strong towards public schools. Peachy in schools - yep. THIS BUSINESS CAN USE ALL THE IDEAS OUT THERE. My challenge to the public vs. private debate and I am on record as saying this.... I can support a choice/voucher program but only under one of two set of circumstances - either the private schools must adopt the accountability and responsibility models that is placed on public schools or the public schools can forgo those current obligations - make the field level. Also, please note the debate to teacher's compensation. If those points are valid that teachers deserve more, know this - under every voucher program that is available nationwide the compensation difference between public programs and private is nearly 28% less. Not saying I may disagree or agree but that is the fact.

But there is in the state constitution and in all state constitutions, I believe. I know it to be the fact for Kentucky. I believe the reason it was so is the states were formed as the more central government of the people instead of the federal level. Boy, have things changed!

LN - are you talking about our state or country? I am confused. You offer the suggestion of the German model so I take it to mean a national frame of reference. If that is the case, please check the following: http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=65 Also, as to the quality of education from private schools vs. public schools there have been three major studies that have concluded the same outcomes. The research was done by Indianna University, Christian Science Monitor and sadly, the US Department of Education. The outcome: public school performance is slightly better than private school education in the subject testing areas - reading, math and science in the following grade levels: 3rd/5th/8th/12th grade. The US Department of Education study is the most recent and released mid 2007. As to the post regarding other countries like China doing better please take it all in a matter of context. I have a fairly strong experience in this subject area. For a student in China that completes an education to the international standard of a BS degree - the AVERAGE cost spent on the student, per capita is nearly 4 times what the best spending is done in the United States. China, like many other countries sort and select its population and deny educational opportunities for many. The few get the education effort of their homeland. The rest are set aside. In spite of many failings - please do not deny what is absolutely still our greatest strength - we are the most education population in the world and in the history of civilization. That is and will continue to be our strength. China? Inquire about their percent of population that is denied education past our standard of the 8th grade. It is somewhere around 35%!

Word on the street is a few Board of Control people have their eye on the job.

I still find it interesting that no one within the education system acknowledges tenure as a value to their job, the automatic step increases, the early retirement system. Even more interesting is the taxpaying public who work outside of education can see the values of these benefits immediately. I still contend if teachers are serious about getting higher compensation they will need to learn to communicate with the tax base. To continue to say how long and how hard they work is a disconnect of a message. No one really hears it or frankly, thinks that should be the case anyway. This thread has proving one thing. Teachers fail to make their case to the community to improve their economic standing. There is the same contentions made but it has yet to improve. The message has to change and the education industry has to be ready to listen. Otherwise, welcome to the status quo.

Somewhere along the lines of the planning period and yes, let's not forget the various "duties" that are not paid for.:sssh:

Does your wife receive a higher salary once she gets a masters and even higher with a rank 1? How is that not being paid? On PD, is she not paid to attend?

Have to agree with this.

Parents run the school???? Not sure about that.

This is typically the case but there is one district (not yours) that had a student hold back for no academic reason whatsoever. I find it interesting the district in question acts as if it never happened.:sleep: and the educators involved can feel comfortable with themselves.

If what you say is true and he has lived in the area the entire time then shame on your system for allowing that to happen. The blame is not exclusive to teachers, principals, central office, it is shared collectively by the entire educational system.

Bottom line. LN.... what I find most interesting with many districts is their policies and procedures reflect the operations of what, when and where. Student manuals for consequences to actions and expectations. But, nowhere do you find an expectation statement or declaration telling the parents what is EXPECTED of them as parents. Schools should pick a fight and TELL a parent what is expected. So what if it makes them mad. Parents will not change until a change agent tells them to.

And a teacher upon retirement can double dip across the river but very few ever do. A chance to double their household income but they elect to work a sub or some other part time gig. They all seem satisfied once they hit the retirement mark at an early age. I do not see the flight of education talent. As a matter of fact how many job openings are there vs. job applicants? What you suggest is really not based on true facts. But if it was, what is the tax base for the poorest funded school district in Ohio? Perhaps 35% better than the best NorKY district? Last I was told it was a buyer's market. Has been for some time and will continue to be. I also do not accept the premise a teacher leaving is exclusively a good quality teacher. If what you say is true it does not say much for those who are here now. I don't buy that. At the end of the day, all your points will not increase the paycheck.

And this is not worth any value????????

Very true.

And how do you propose these higher salaries get paid? As a taxpayer, I pay more than enough and am not interested in higher taxes to pay teachers more! This will represent 90% of the people who would be needed to support this effort. Further, tenure protects more bad, tenfold than the creative set of circumstances that make it a valid point. Also, with tenure I noticed you failed to mention a teacher has an appeal process that is significantly favored towards the teacher. I notice the average starting pay for a first year teacher with no prior experience, in NorKY the average is nearly $35,000. Right out of college at age 21 and can work until they are nearly 50 and can retire with an estimated annual retirement of about $60,000. Working 187 days per year. I am afraid you are not going to find many people interested in really pushing up that scale.

In many professions that pay higher than education, people can be fired because the management/manager does not like them. Why shouldn't management have that right??? Many people (engineers and computer programers) have lost their jobs because someone would do their job for a lot less money. Why shouldn't managers have that option? Do you not comprehend the vast majority of taxpayers live under this circumstance? And you wonder why people fail to appreciate your arguements when you fail to see how many would say "The real world" lives? Also, you need to be consistent. In the first sentance you said tenure is simply you cannot be fired because the principal does not like you. Then you go on to say you can be fired with or without tenure if you are a poor teacher. I am sure you are not trying to mislead us into thinking there is no value to tenure. If there is no value to it, then why is it so important to your profession to obtain it and protect it at all costs. If the principal does not like you who should be the one to make sure to get along with the principal? How many of your fellow teachers simply thump their noses to expectations and changes because of the shield of tenure? As for not knowing your retirement system, all I can say is wow. When you need it and it is not enough I sure hope you do not think it is anyone else's responsibility to take care of you then. Hey, look bottom line you want to keep the status quo in place? Fine by many. But what you will never see is substantial improvement to compensation under the current set up. No taxpaying public will support a significant cost obligation and keep getting the same outcome.

I ask again, what is the value of compensation of having tenure and the excellent retirement system?

Thanks! There is opportunity to increase pay in this state/country but not under the current set of circumstances. There is no hidden, evil conservative - voucher choice force.... it is just a process of improving the economic circumstance and having it supported.

Before the question on compensation gets too out of hand the first question I have is what is the economic value of tenure? What other profession, which many teachers with Rank 1 want to compare to (other professions that require a Masters Degree) have the absolute guarantee of pay and a job for many years to come. That has to be worth something yet it is never acknowledged. Second, the retirement of the certified teacher in this state was recently acknowledged as the best in the country. How is that possible for a state with such a poor macro economic model? And in the change of it how is it possible to increase the pay package on salary? Should teachers be paid more? It is a relatively feel good statement to say yes they should. Who would stand against anyone getting a higher pay? But, add in the real fact that to accomplish the same would require higher tax payments of the community and the support is not reality. Every school district has 70% to 80% of their budget as payroll. It is unrealistic to think any district can change it to 80% to 90%. That is simply poor math logic. The sad fact is teachers are topped out for income in this state until significant changes are made in the current operational model. If a teacher wishes to double their income, then accountability will take on a whole new level - more than what is experienced now. Merit will and well could be subjective, but any lawyer will tell you their client subjects them to merit everytime. Same goes for doctors, executives, etc. The bottom line is the higher the pay plane a person operates on the more demand of response, action and results will occur. What will never happen is a significant increase in pay and the current measurements remain in place. What are teachers willing to give up and what you get in return cannot be guaranteed. That is the real world of comparative compensation. Most teachers are very uncomfortable with that.

One thing that is not mentioned about Ms. DeGeneres is her generosity to many charitable organizations. She is a real fixture in the celebrity giving scene, with her name, TIME and MONEY! Her work in New Orleans, and no God did not flood this town for its sins, is quite incredible. Her work with Children Affected with AIDS along with Mattel is substantial. I think she will leave the matter as she has always kept it, private. I suspect it will be a part of her show when it happens and that will be the end of it.

I just do not accept the premise that any political party has exclusive claim to moral authority. You miss the point. It is the Republican Party that claimed that moral authority and held those who did not believe like them as amoral. Your point was that all people have imperfections. My point is don't hold oneself up to a higher standard unless one is willing to accept the consequence of failing to live up to that standard. It could be claimed such actions would be considered accountability?! The rest of your points I agree with, but a game was played by the Republican political leadership for the past decade that is now a major obstacle for them to overcome. As for traditional values and who has themselves wrapped into it - I believe the vast majority of voters are fed up with that being the message vehicle. I think most voters today are interested in war, energy and economy and I think they will vote on those points this coming election cycle.

But it is disappointing the Republican Party has wrapped itself into the "traditional" values / family values advocates - whatever that is suppose to mean. The party preached the high road and called the Democrats as something less religious, less moral, etc. Instead of being the party of pro economic growth, opportunity for everyone, the party of self determination; it has become the party to hold judgement of others that many are more guilty of themselves. That is called hypocrite. What exists now is not my Republican Party and where I go to church does not belong in my voting booth!:thumb: