I don't know how LeBron taking the Cavs to the Finals can be discounted. Weak East or not, that Cavs team did not have much talent on it. However, they didn't win the whole thing.

I don't know how LeBron taking the Cavs to the Finals can be discounted. Weak East or not, that Cavs team did not have much talent on it. However, they didn't win the whole thing.

 

You don't think the East being wayyyyy down taints their championship appearance? I don't see how it can't. There were a handful (at least) of team in the West that potentially could have swept the Cavs in the playoffs, IMO. Unfortunately they can only meet one team once to prove that. Let's just say if there were no conferences and the teams were mixed in a 16 team playoff bracket, the Cavs would not have made it to the finals.

You don't think the East being wayyyyy down taints their championship appearance? I don't see how it can't. There were a handful (at least) of team in the West that potentially could have swept the Cavs in the playoffs, IMO. Unfortunately they can only meet one team once to prove that. Let's just say if there were no conferences and the teams were mixed in a 16 team playoff bracket, the Cavs would not have made it to the finals.

 

Beating the Pistons counts for nothing? Never said the Cavs were the 2nd best team in the league that year.

Only one guy you mentioned was better than Wade(Shaq) and only two are(were) better than Bosh(Shaq/Gasol).

 

 

1.) If Kobe had left LA to go play with San Antonio and had he won 3 more titles with Timmy we wouldn't even be discussing Kobe right now. All EVERYONE would say about Kobe is that he could never do it by himself. When Kobe's first 3 titles are mentioned in any debate, especially debates concerning Kobe/MJ the first thing people say is that he wasn't the best player on his team and that it was Shaq's team. Had he left for greener pastures and formed a super team with Tim Duncan and TMac when they were free agents then Kobe would not be revered the way he is now because of the wealth of talent around him needed for him to accumulate titles. Now that LeBron is going to attempt to win titles with the 3rd best player in the NBA and one of the top 2 power forwards in the league why should that standard change? Especially when according to you he was doing better at guiding a hapless bunch of losers to the Finals, the Eastern Conference Finals and Eastern Conference Semifinals than Kobe was at getting out the first round. LeBron could have gone to Chicago and kept all of his credibility with me but as much as I like him and enjoy watching him play I can't look at him the same.

 

2.) I asked my buddy today would you sell your insurance agency to go be the number 2 guy at a competing agency and work for a guy who is a great friend but you know you are better than him but you two could have a super agency or would you take your agency which has been a top 4 agency and better than the friend's agency and work a little harder in all facets of your profession to make your agency the top agency.

 

LeBron would sell the agency. He made a sacrifice to win titles and he sacrificed the chance to be the greatest ever.

 

3.) One title in New York would have gone a lot farther for him in terms of where he will rank amongst all time greats than multiple titles in Miami will.

 

I also think that anyone who believes he wouldn't have won at least 1 title had he stayed in Cleveland is in denial. As many different things as Cleveland has tried to make the team better, they were simply one person away. I cannot convince myself that they wouldn't have gotten that one person sometime within the next 6 years. I watched the Bulls be built from MJ up. I watched the Pistons be built from Isiah on up. I watched the Spurs be built from David Robinson up. This is the first time I can recall watching a team(Cavs) build something so spectacular and get so close only to have the building block say ....ahhhh, I think I am going to stop construction and go hang out at my friend's beachront condo.

 

To each his own. I can't put him amongst the greats. I will enjoy watching him play.

 

1.) Good analogies, but Kobe almost always had talent around him, and a lot of it. Even the years they didn't make it out of the first round they weren't a poor mans team, they still had some solid pieces. Big difference in playing in LA and playing in Cleveland. You compare single Laker players to Wade and Bosh, and even admit Shaq and Gasol are both as good as one of them. What happens when you do factor in all the Derek Fishers, Robert Horry's, Trevor Ariza's, Ron Artests, Lamar Odoms, Andrew Bynums, Glen Rices, etc. (all the other solid NBA players) that Kobe had around him to go with it compared to whats going to be the Heats Big Z (who got released as soon as he was dealt to a team last year) Udonis Haslem, and all the rookies (2nd rounders). Mike Miller will be the 4th best player after the first three, you can't tell me from any Lakers team that won it all that the surrounding pieces combined cannot trump the third and fourth Miami Heat pieces can you? Regardless of how much you want to think otherwise, Kobe has basically always been surrounded by very good NBA players. Heck hasn't the consensus for two or three years been the Lakers by far are the most talented team in basketball (with the best coach you might add) and wasn't that the case during the three peat years? Of course Kobe is going to look good when he also has the most talented team around him.

 

 

2.) Come on man, surely your not comparing selling insurance companys and NBA free agency? :lol:

 

3.) Who's to say he would have ever really got that second piece in Cleveland? It hadn't happened so far. You talk about Robinson, he ended up with Duncan. You talk about Isiah, he ended up with Dumars, Lambier, Rodman, Salley etc., Jordan got Pippen, so far the Cavs hadn't got anything close to that, and who's to say they ever would have? You said they would have, but you really cannot say that as a certainty. They had zero cap space this year, they had players no one else wanted in a trade, and they had guys on the books who wasn't going to come off for a few years. Hate to break it, but 5-10 mil every couple of years isn't going to bring you that dynamic wingman, not in this day and age.

 

 

 

 

Well I'm glad you still enjoy to watch him play, thats the main thing. Most Kobe arguists don't give him that credit. But of course you cannot put with the greats, he's 25, and when all is done with this whole thing, he's liable to just be 30 or 31 and could still go elsewhere and win one on a crap team like everyone seems to expect him to do anyway. Point is, no one is considered great at 25, no one. Kobe wasn't, Jordan wasn't, no one is. So all I'm saying is its easy to say this and say that and act like he will be nothing or his reputation won't be anything now. But you cannot tell me if the Heat win three-six, and he averages near tripple doubles during that span and gets three or four Finals MVP's and a couple more MVP's that he won't be considered one of the greats. All I'm saying is I do not know why everyone is writing him off right now and using Kobe as the benchmark saying he will never reach Kobe status. To me that is an argument that has no substance, not right now. Ask me again in about 7 years.

You don't think the East being wayyyyy down taints their championship appearance? I don't see how it can't. There were a handful (at least) of team in the West that potentially could have swept the Cavs in the playoffs, IMO. Unfortunately they can only meet one team once to prove that. Let's just say if there were no conferences and the teams were mixed in a 16 team playoff bracket, the Cavs would not have made it to the finals.

 

No matter what you think the talent level of the East was at that time, there were a lot of teams on that side of the bracket who had a lot more talent than the Cavaliers. What Lebron did to get them there was nothing short of special. Just shows how big of haters some of you are to try and discredit that.

No matter what you think the talent level of the East was at that time, there were a lot of teams on that side of the bracket who had a lot more talent than the Cavaliers. What Lebron did to get them there was nothing short of special. Just shows how big of haters some of you are to try and discredit that.

 

I'm still going to disagree with you but either way he got swept quite easily. What's your point? He still is a huge loser.

I'm still going to disagree with you but either way he got swept quite easily. What's your point? He still is a huge loser.

 

How in the world would anyone actually expect that team to beat the Spurs at that time? It was basically Lebron, Eric Snow and Big Z against Tony Parker, Manu, Bowen (best defender of the decade), Duncan, and that crazy good bench they had. Wasn't Robert Horry even on that team? I mean really man get real. Yeah what a loser, a twenty one or twenty two year old cannot almost single handidly beat that team, what a total chump.

And he goes the past 2 years having a ball in the regular season, posting the best record both years and gets worked in the playoffs both years. L-O-S-E-R. And did I say anything about the Spurs? No one was beating them that year, my point was the only reason they made the finals is because the East sucked. Again, the Wizards, Nets, and Pistons....

And he goes the past 2 years having a ball in the regular season, posting the best record both years and gets worked in the playoffs both years. L-O-S-E-R. And did I say anything about the Spurs? No one was beating them that year, my point was the only reason they made the finals is because the East sucked. Again, the Wizards, Nets, and Pistons....

 

Pistons had just won a championship. Nets had recently been to a Finals. Both were way more talented than Cleveland that year.

Pistons had just won a championship. Nets had recently been to a Finals. Both were way more talented than Cleveland that year.

 

Pistons won in 2004. Cavs beat them in 2007. BIG difference. Nets were in the finals in 2003. Again, this is 2007. The points you've made are poor to say the least.

^ Not to mention the Nets were a 6 seed to the Cavs 2 seed. How were they more talented than the Cavs?

I don't mind him. I think he handled the Cleveland thing wrong and I actually think he simply didn't realize it. He needs a better entourage in his life more than likely.

1.) Good analogies, but Kobe almost always had talent around him, and a lot of it. Even the years they didn't make it out of the first round they weren't a poor mans team, they still had some solid pieces. Big difference in playing in LA and playing in Cleveland. You compare single Laker players to Wade and Bosh, and even admit Shaq and Gasol are both as good as one of them. What happens when you do factor in all the Derek Fishers, Robert Horry's, Trevor Ariza's, Ron Artests, Lamar Odoms, Andrew Bynums, Glen Rices, etc. (all the other solid NBA players) that Kobe had around him to go with it compared to whats going to be the Heats Big Z (who got released as soon as he was dealt to a team last year) Udonis Haslem, and all the rookies (2nd rounders). Mike Miller will be the 4th best player after the first three, you can't tell me from any Lakers team that won it all that the surrounding pieces combined cannot trump the third and fourth Miami Heat pieces can you? Regardless of how much you want to think otherwise, Kobe has basically always been surrounded by very good NBA players. Heck hasn't the consensus for two or three years been the Lakers by far are the most talented team in basketball (with the best coach you might add) and wasn't that the case during the three peat years? Of course Kobe is going to look good when he also has the most talented team around him.

 

 

2.) Come on man, surely your not comparing selling insurance companys and NBA free agency? :lol:

 

3.) Who's to say he would have ever really got that second piece in Cleveland? It hadn't happened so far. You talk about Robinson, he ended up with Duncan. You talk about Isiah, he ended up with Dumars, Lambier, Rodman, Salley etc., Jordan got Pippen, so far the Cavs hadn't got anything close to that, and who's to say they ever would have? You said they would have, but you really cannot say that as a certainty. They had zero cap space this year, they had players no one else wanted in a trade, and they had guys on the books who wasn't going to come off for a few years. Hate to break it, but 5-10 mil every couple of years isn't going to bring you that dynamic wingman, not in this day and age.

 

 

 

 

Well I'm glad you still enjoy to watch him play, thats the main thing. Most Kobe arguists don't give him that credit. But of course you cannot put with the greats, he's 25, and when all is done with this whole thing, he's liable to just be 30 or 31 and could still go elsewhere and win one on a crap team like everyone seems to expect him to do anyway. Point is, no one is considered great at 25, no one. Kobe wasn't, Jordan wasn't, no one is. So all I'm saying is its easy to say this and say that and act like he will be nothing or his reputation won't be anything now. But you cannot tell me if the Heat win three-six, and he averages near tripple doubles during that span and gets three or four Finals MVP's and a couple more MVP's that he won't be considered one of the greats. All I'm saying is I do not know why everyone is writing him off right now and using Kobe as the benchmark saying he will never reach Kobe status. To me that is an argument that has no substance, not right now. Ask me again in about 7 years.

 

Kobe has had solid talent around him but no one capable of leading a team. Wade and Bosh were the man on their teams and led them to a title and the playoffs. Gasol never led Memphis anywhere and Odom never led any of the teams he played on anywhere. With the exception of Shaq, Kobe has never played with anyone whose talent level and abilities are equal to his. He is always the unquestioned best player in purple and gold. LeBron could end up being the second best player on his team but unlike Kobe who was drafted into that situation and had to prove his worth, LeBron is choosing to go to a situation knowing he could end up the second best player. We have no idea how it plays out. We just know that for now he is deferring to DWade.

 

 

Not comparing owning an insurance agency to free agency, no. I am comparing the mentality it takes to want to be the best. Based off of his decision it seems that LeBron is lacking in that trait that you can find in most people especially independent business men.

 

You kind of helped my argument out. With what he has accomplished at age 25 already we can all agree he is still getting better, right? If he is just getting better surely he would have won at least 1 title in Cleveland at some point. It would have been inevitable.

 

Like you said, we'll revisit in7 years. A lot can happen between now and then. He and Kobe may be on the same team at that point.

dolamite,

 

All of that sounds like an excuse to me. Kobe has always played with better talent? Well some of us are born to rich parents and never have to work a day in our lives, that doesn't excuse those people from needing to be positive members of society. LeBron was dealt a crappy hand, but so was Jordan. I don't want to hear Chicago is a better market, because before Jordan the Bulls were a joke. Before LeBron the Cavs were a joke. LeBron is 25, do you mean to tell me that in the next 3 years Cleveland would not have got him that next piece he needed to take the next step? LeBron got payed millions to play for an organization that tried it's best to win. It is tougher in Cleveland, but wouldn't that make it more worthwhile if he had been able to get a 'ship or 3?

 

Please don't tell me you buy the crap he fed that a title in Miami would be just as sweet as one in Cleveland.

^ Not to mention the Nets were a 6 seed to the Cavs 2 seed. How were they more talented than the Cavs?

 

Did that Nets team have Kidd, Carter and Jefferson? That's better than James, Gibson and Big Z is it not? LeBron's 2nd best option that year was Larry Hughes for crying out loud.