I said this in another thread, but I will mention it again here. Perhaps it is not so much that the use of torture validates retalitary torture against us with our current enemies but with those of our future enemies. Does the use of torture establish precident for those enemies that haven't even challenged us yet?

Personally, I think it's ridiculous that we feel like we have to take the high road. Then again, I'm the guy who has long advocated a cessation in spending on big, expensive bombs in favor of just emptying out our junkyards on hostile countries. I think we're missing out on a huge opportunity to both clean up our country and win the psychological battle by showing the crazies that we can out-crazy anybody. Nothing could get that point across better than dropping an old refrigerator on some terrorist camp.

 

That has to be one of the most ingenious plans I've ever heard. I've got a basement and a garage I'd donate to the cause. Just call me patriotic.

That has to be one of the most ingenious plans I've ever heard. I've got a basement and a garage I'd donate to the cause. Just call me patriotic.

 

I call it "The G-Bomb," as in garbage.

We have always striven to be a better nation. It is the common thread of the history of our country. To let our enemy take that concept away from us means they have effected us in the worst possible way, it would mean they made us like them.

 

I will not let let my enemy dictate my morals and concepts of human rights. Nor will I be convinced that those involved in deteriorating our standards are not traitors to our national identity and heritage.

We have always striven to be a better nation. It is the common thread of the history of our country. To let our enemy take that concept away from us means they have effected us in the worst possible way, it would mean they made us like them.

 

I will not let let my enemy dictate my morals and concepts of human rights. Nor will I be convinced that those involved in deteriorating our standards are not traitors to our national identity and heritage.

 

Impressive but it sounds like a college lecture.

 

20 years from now you have a child working in NYC. There is a solid chance an attack on the building your child works in can be avoided if we can get this one guy to talk.

 

Is the person that uses techniques that you're not comfortable with but ultimately saves your child and 3000 others still a traitor?

Impressive but it sounds like a college lecture.

 

20 years from now you have a child working in NYC. There is a solid chance an attack on the building your child works in can be avoided if we can get this one guy to talk.

 

Is the person that uses techniques that you're not comfortable with but ultimately saves your child and 3000 others still a traitor?

 

How about this one?

 

20 years from now you have a child working as a soldier in a forward area. There is a chance that an attack on his/her unit could result in him/her being captured. Could that future enemy follow our lead and torture that child to obtain wanted information from him/her?

How about this one?

 

20 years from now you have a child working as a soldier in a forward area. There is a chance that an attack on his/her unit could result in him/her being captured. Could that future enemy follow our lead and torture that child to obtain wanted information from him/her?

 

Could they? Yes.

 

I'm not sure what you are saying exactly.

Impressive but it sounds like a college lecture.

 

20 years from now you have a child working in NYC. There is a solid chance an attack on the building your child works in can be avoided if we can get this one guy to talk.

 

Is the person that uses techniques that you're not comfortable with but ultimately saves your child and 3000 others still a traitor?

Torture does not obtain reliable information. It is a form of vengeance more than anything else.

 

I do have a college education and I see no reason to defend that fact. While my study of history plays a role in my belief, I would argue the belief is more a matter of principal rather than theory.

 

The situation you present is an extreme scenario, and personally I would in all likelihood want vengeance. But in a clear frame of mind I can tell you now that I don't think torture would provide a means of saving anyone.

Could they? Yes.

 

I'm not sure what you are saying exactly.

 

I may have misunderstood your post, then. I thought that you were giving an example in with torture might be assumed to yield positive results. I was giving one that had a negative outcome.

How about this one?

 

20 years from now you have a child working as a soldier in a forward area. There is a chance that an attack on his/her unit could result in him/her being captured. Could that future enemy follow our lead and torture that child to obtain wanted information from him/her?

 

 

They already do regardless of what we do....

They already do regardless of what we do....

 

You are predicting the future?

You can make all the rulings and decisions you want, what goes on in the battle field after dark is a different story.

Torture does not obtain reliable information. It is a form of vengeance more than anything else.

 

I do have a college education and I see no reason to defend that fact. While my study of history plays a role in my belief, I would argue the belief is more a matter of principal rather than theory.

 

The situation you present is an extreme scenario, and personally I would in all likelihood want vengeance. But in a clear frame of mind I can tell you now that I don't think torture would provide a means of saving anyone.

 

There's evidence that you're wrong. Now, if you said does not "always" obtain...., you'd be right.

Torture does not obtain reliable information. It is a form of vengeance more than anything else.

 

I do have a college education and I see no reason to defend that fact. While my study of history plays a role in my belief, I would argue the belief is more a matter of principal rather than theory.

 

The situation you present is an extreme scenario, and personally I would in all likelihood want vengeance. But in a clear frame of mind I can tell you now that I don't think torture would provide a means of saving anyone.

 

Best truth in the debate. :thumb:

 

Not just now but historically torture backfires. Under that kind of torture people will make up and implicate anyone just to have it stop. Even our own troops in Vietnam made up names and events to get the torture to stop.

 

If McCain says no to torture then that's enough for me. Why? Because he knows first hand what happens to the tortured (pain and mental scars) and the torturers (they lose their souls).

There's evidence that you're wrong. Now, if you said does not "always" obtain...., you'd be right.

 

Historically speaking he's right. What many who were tortured did was "make up" or tell half truths about what the torturers wanted to hear. Evidence used under torture was often thrown out in the military and/or the courts. It is rare that it's brought sound/solid help or evidence.