Your words were:

 

Torture didn't win the Civil War, WWI, WWII, or the Cold War. We didn't need it then and we don't need it now. We are better than that.

 

 

Given the methods that won those conflicts were actually more brutal, heartless and immoral than what we have been doing why do you not say "we never should have done that either" ?

 

I ask this question because as you cited those conflicts as examples, if we cannot use torture are we then free to use the same methods as we did in those conflicts? Is it acceptable to simply carpet bomb entire countries where terrorists tend to come from? Physically turn most of the Middle East into a lunar landscape and eradicate all life from here, which isn't at all dissimilar from the bombings in WWII or the artillery barrages of WWI.

 

Just curious as to why you are condemning torture but not condemning the methods we used in previous conflicts.

Furthermore we have progressed from total war, chemical weapons, firebombing and napalm use. We don't do that anymore because we saw a need to be better than that. The bringing of torture is a back step in our defense for basic human treatment.

 

Disclaimer:

 

More a rant as a whole on things I have noticed that irritate me over the last few years. Not specifically pointed at you RRR.

 

 

So you in essence are saying that mankind is more civilized now than it used to be?

 

If we are so beyond it then why don't we take initiatives to disarm the world in its entirety?

 

Oh, that's because violence IS in human nature. There is nothing that I have seen in this world today to tell me that it is any different morally than it was in the days of Caesar, than it was in the days of Saladin, than it was in the days of Napoleon or than it was during Patton's time.

 

Americans, such as you and I, have the luxury to think that "we" are beyond that because we don't have to fight for every meal. We believe such idealistic drivel because our nation is a nation of excess where we have had no armed conflict or a foreign invaders on our soil since the end of the Civil War and the War of 1812 respectively.

 

We are padded, cushioned, molly-coddled and sheltered despite the images we see on TV. We see people getting killed in Africa and we sit there and say "That's terrible! Why do they do that?" as we buy our latte at Starbucks then get back into our environmentally friendly Prius.

 

Americans, as a whole, are delusional as to the state of human nature because our nation has been removed from a state of need for so long that we have forgotten what it is like.

Edited April 23, 200917 yr by PepRock01

Disclaimer:

 

More a rant as a whole on things I have noticed that irritate me over the last few years. Not specifically pointed at you RRR.

 

 

So you in essence are saying that mankind is more civilized now than it used to be?

 

If we are so beyond it then why don't we take initiatives to disarm the world in its entirety?

 

Oh, that's because violence IS in human nature. There is nothing that I have seen in this world today to tell me that it is any different morally than it was in the days of Caesar, than it was in the days of Saladin, than it was in the days of Napoleon or than it was during Patton's time.

 

Americans, such as you and I, have the luxury to think that "we" are beyond that because we don't have to fight for every meal. We believe such idealistic drivel because our nation is a nation of excess where we have had no armed conflict or a foreign invaders on our soil since the end of the Civil War and the War of 1812 respectively.

 

We are padded, cushioned, molly-coddled and sheltered despite the images we see on TV. We see people getting killed in Africa and we sit there and say "That's terrible! Why do they do that?" as we buy our latte at Starbucks then get back into our environmentally friendly Prius.

 

Americans, as a whole, are delusional as to the state of human nature because our nation has been removed from a state of need for so long that we have forgotten what it is like.

 

Your rant is on target. Yet, we eschew and disdain those people who think we're "soft", or "weak". We are, ourselves, armed to the teeth, militarily, and as a citizenry. Yet we preach disarmament to other countries. We insist on humane treatment of citizens of all countries. Yet we engage in torture.

 

Go figure why some countries hate us. :ohbrother: How often as the edict "Do as I say, not as I do" worked?

The biggest reason we haven't had a war on our soil and we enjoy the things we do is because we are armed to the teeth.. What freedoms and luxurious should we give up to please the rest of the world.. We already give more than most of the rest of the world combined.

So you in essence are saying that mankind is more civilized now than it used to be?

One of things I can most feel proud about this country as that we make steps to achieve a more civilized world.

 

If we are so beyond it then why don't we take initiatives to disarm the world in its entirety?

There are those that take that step, the U.S. is not taking that role for what I believe are very practical reason and that is a whole other thread.

 

Oh, that's because violence IS in human nature. There is nothing that I have seen in this world today to tell me that it is any different morally than it was in the days of Caesar, than it was in the days of Saladin, than it was in the days of Napoleon or than it was during Patton's time.

Did you enjoy the lastest public hanging, or how was that gladitorial contest last Saturday, did you hear Bush challenge Obama to pistol duel. There are around 5 billion people in the world today, many many more than yester year. I simply can not agree that people have not taken better reins on our violent nature.

 

Americans, such as you and I, have the luxury to think that "we" are beyond that because we don't have to fight for every meal. We believe such idealistic drivel because our nation is a nation of excess where we have had no armed conflict or a foreign invaders on our soil since the end of the Civil War and the War of 1812 respectively.

People invade our country everyday but it is in the hopes to be one of us, not to eliminate us. I don't believe that having principals amounts to believeing in idealistic drivel. These ideas and reach for a better tomorrow drove us before we were the most powerful nation in the world. I would argue that having such beliefs played a large role in propelling us to that status.

 

We are padded, cushioned, molly-coddled and sheltered despite the images we see on TV. We see people getting killed in Africa and we sit there and say "That's terrible! Why do they do that?" as we buy our latte at Starbucks then get back into our environmentally friendly Prius.

 

Americans, as a whole, are delusional as to the state of human nature because our nation has been removed from a state of need for so long that we have forgotten what it is like.

I completely believe it is in the power of human nature to challenge our violent tendancies, the first paragraph (of the two) states as much as we have largely controlled them in our own society.

 

I don't think we are delusional, I think we are right. Less violence in society makes for better society. We are not weaker for our regard for human life and dignity. What power or nation in the history of the world could topple this padded, cushioned, molly-coddled and sheltered society that we have, I don't know of one.

One of things I can most feel proud about this country as that we make steps to achieve a more civilized world.

 

IF that isn't American arrogance I don't know what is. Stating that we know civilization, we know our civilization. Civilization to us is debased barbarism to the fundamental Islamic world.

 

There are those that take that step, the U.S. is not taking that role for what I believe are very practical reason and that is a whole other thread.

 

Here I actually agree with you. Although I will add that those who melt their guns and turn them into plows will do the farming for those who didn't.

 

I also feel that those who take that step are fools.

 

Did you enjoy the lastest public hanging, or how was that gladitorial contest last Saturday, did you hear Bush challenge Obama to pistol duel. There are around 5 billion people in the world today, many many more than yester year. I simply can not agree that people have not taken better reins on our violent nature.

 

You enjoy football, violent movies or video games? We, in the U.S., are simply substituting an artificial form of the real thing to sake our blood lust. But I am not speaking strictly of the U.S. we hold this ideal that people should be peaceful and docile but you look at the developing world, or even in areas that are well developed. Middle East before our intervention was like that.

 

Africa, parts of Asia and shoot even Eastern Europe when Russia invaded Georgia. It doesn't matter where it is, I see nothing to tell me that humanity has moved forward. We have placed ourselves in our bubble and believe humanity can rise above it, but frankly if we had to deal with the scarcity of resources that other parts of the world I am certain that people would revert to their baser nature.

 

People invade our country everyday but it is in the hopes to be one of us, not to eliminate us. I don't believe that having principals amounts to believeing in idealistic drivel. These ideas and reach for a better tomorrow drove us before we were the most powerful nation in the world. I would argue that having such beliefs played a large role in propelling us to that status.

 

They do, because they want what we have. That much I agree with, but the problem is that throughout history scarcity of resources, in one form or another has consistently led to conflict. If our population explodes here beyond a certain point, trust me scarcity will push out such idealism.

 

"Principles" you call them, idealistic delusions of a sheltered life I call them.

 

Did the bolded come from someone's speech, something tells me I have heard it before.

 

The desire for individual prosperity drove us, where it was stifled elsewhere people came here to seek it.

 

I completely believe it is in the power of human nature to challenge our violent tendancies, the first paragraph (of the two) states as much as we have largely controlled them in our own society.

 

Humans are inherently self serving. As such I believe that no one does anything, even altruistically, without some form of benefit to them. We overcome this nature WITHIN a society because if we didn't society would collapse and it would be complete anarchy. It is currently in our best interests to be a relatively docile populace. Were things to change I don't doubt the ability to resort to force. Everything we do willingly though is for our own benefit in some way, shape or form.

 

I don't think we are delusional, I think we are right. Less violence in society makes for better society. We are not weaker for our regard for human life and dignity. What power or nation in the history of the world could topple this padded, cushioned, molly-coddled and sheltered society that we have, I don't know of one.

 

I think we are deluding ourselves to the nature of humanity. However, that said I believe that within a society for it to work we must have some sense of delusion. Otherwise society would collapse to our natures. That said as long as we deal with societies with similar values then I have little problem respecting life as they do. On the other hand when dealing with those who do not come from similar societies where the artificial value on life is lower then I have no problem in dealing with them as is necessary.

 

The power that could topple our society and our nation is that ever-present economic force that can cause empires to form or collapse, scarcity. If ever hit with a true scarcity of the kind of resources that the countries of the third world have, we would collapse like a house of cards.

 

Coincidentally I also don't think that this sort of information should be made common knowledge until at least 50 years after the fact. For what it's worth there probably is a degree of idealism on the one hand and cynicism on the other needed for a free society such as ours to exist.

 

 

We are never going to agree on this issue, so it is probably pointless to further it. I am the type of person that believes the ends justify the means. If torture is necessary and effective then I am a for it. If it turned out that in order for our nation to survive we would have to completely eradicate another nation on this planet then I would support it.

 

You on the other hand probably would look at it differently.

This thread is becoming torturous to read. I still maintain the stance that whether or not it's us or them, torture will always be around. However I feel that we will try to spare someones life and that in the end, that is our goal, to save lives. Where as their goal is to take lives.

The biggest reason we haven't had a war on our soil and we enjoy the things we do is because we are armed to the teeth.. What freedoms and luxurious should we give up to please the rest of the world.. We already give more than most of the rest of the world combined.

 

I don't think we should give up freedoms, but there are lots of luxuries we should give up so that we aren't indebted to regretful countries like China. God help us if they ever decide to say "pay up."

This thread is becoming torturous to read. I still maintain the stance that whether or not it's us or them, torture will always be around. However I feel that we will try to spare someones life and that in the end, that is our goal, to save lives. Where as their goal is to take lives.

 

It's becoming torturous to read because you and the rest of the people who have read it and haven't commented are being forced to face what pains them. PR is right. We are deluding ourselves to think that we are somehow above the fray. It won't be long before the population explosion out west will force those people to go to unfortunate extremes to preserve their scarce water supply.

 

We're no better than anyone else. We're just able to forestall the inevitable longer than the rest of the world.

It's becoming torturous to read because you and the rest of the people who have read it and haven't commented are being forced to face what pains them. PR is right. We are deluding ourselves to think that we are somehow above the fray. It won't be long before the population explosion out west will force those people to go to unfortunate extremes to preserve their scarce water supply.

 

We're no better than anyone else. We're just able to forestall the inevitable longer than the rest of the world.

 

This leads me to believe that you haven't read the entire thread.:ohbrother:

This leads me to believe that you haven't read the entire thread.:ohbrother:

 

I have read the entire thread.

 

By "becoming," I assumed you meant the most recent posts: i.e., PR's comments on how we as a country aren't this shining moral example for the rest of the world most Americans would like to believe.

 

If you were making a joke, well, I just missed it. It was 3 a.m., after all, and I'm not as sharp late at night as I used to be.

I have read the entire thread.

 

By "becoming," I assumed you meant the most recent posts: i.e., PR's comments on how we as a country aren't this shining moral example for the rest of the world most Americans would like to believe.

 

If you were making a joke, well, I just missed it. It was 3 a.m., after all, and I'm not as sharp late at night as I used to be.

 

You're forgiven, and I'm fully aware of how popular we're not world wide.

You're forgiven, and I'm fully aware of how popular we're not world wide.

 

I wasn't apologizing.

I wasn't apologizing.

 

I know. :sssh: