IMO this is a very elitest response. If we want to work harder, then let us. Come on now, I don't think that this has anything to do with the proposal at hand. What about the schools who want to "work hard" but because school starts August 3 they are relegated to one practice a day at that point. What Coach Harp call for is consistency IMO. No one school deserves more practice time than another, it is up to that coaching staff to create a plan to maximize thier time.

 

Total practices is what the NCAA has been doing for years, and it works well for them. This used to not be an issue with August 1 being the starting date and you had a two weeks of practice before the first scrimmage. Schools hadn't started yet. With the implementaion of the year around calendar, the KHSAA put in the current system. I think that Coach Harp's plan is the most consistent, I wouldn't say fair!

 

So, just for the sake of argument, what it appears that you are saying is that instead of the coaches who are currently disadvantaged by start date being the ones who have to create a plan to maximize their time, we should now make it so everyone has to?

I hear you but I don't think it's being elitist at all. If a school board in N. Ky told its football program that they can only practice M, W and F, would you expect the KHSAA to implement a rule that permitted all other schools to only practice on those days in the name of consistency? How is that any different? A bit extreme I'll admit, but similar logic. Or if a school district elects not to permit out of district students to pay tuition and attend, would you expect the KHSAA to implement a rule that makes all out of district students ineligible for athletics? The bottom line for my irritation with Sam's proposal is that a locally imposed decision (start date) is going to be crammed down all other school districts. That bothers me.

 

That is not what I am saying at all. Maybe at Highlands and a limited other schools, the football coach has some say when the school starts class, but that isn't realistic to most.

 

I am not for saying that everything has to be equal, and I understand that this rule could be percieved to be heading in that direction. All the rule states is that all programs can start on July 15th and have a certain number of practices they can have before their first game. It's policing a situation IMO, no different than giving a certain number of scrimmages.

That is not what I am saying at all. Maybe at Highlands and a limited other schools, the football coach has some say when the school starts class, but that isn't realistic to most.

 

I am not for saying that everything has to be equal, and I understand that this rule could be percieved to be heading in that direction. All the rule states is that all programs can start on July 15th and have a certain number of practices they can have before their first game. It's policing a situation IMO, no different than giving a certain number of scrimmages.

 

At Highlands the football coach doesn't have any say that I'm aware of in when the school year starts. But if in my example the school board decided that practicing football every day was bad for academics and decided that they could only practice 3 days a week, would it be fair if all other schools in the state would also be limited to only 3 days a week? That's what we have in Sam's proposal. Because decisions of a school board are limiting the number of practices Sam can get in before the first game, he wants every other program to be so limited in the name of consistency, equality or whatever you want to call it. I disagree with that concept completely. If you agree with Sam, then you'd have to logically agree with limiting the number of practices throughout the state if a school board was to limit the number of practices per week, or ban two a days, etc, etc.

Coach Harp's proposal is a good one. He is a wise man, wonderful person and a very good coach. I don't have any problems trusting him and have asked our administration to support his proposal.

 

I also asked our administration to support the June-July proposal.

 

I realize the kids can still play AAU basketball in July. The football kids can also still attend individual camps in June to be recruited. I am ok with working with kids in July as needed. Coach O'Hearn has always worked with our kids who needed to miss a summer basketball game to attend a football camp. Kelly Wells allowed Dustin Grutza to miss almost all of June to attend football camps. Chris Lofton missed alot of July but was there by the end of July ready to go and practice football. As July ends, we are not nearly as flexible. But, as much as we can, we try to make it work.

 

In our football program, June is the time for kids to play basketball, baseball, and attend football camps on an individual basis. It has worked well for us. Part of that is we have a year round weightclass. The kids start with me around July 10. By the time June 1 rolls around, our guys need a break from me. Hard to believe I know. :lol: Our basketball program has no team activities in July like our football team in June. We agreed to this in 1996 when Fred Hester was our basketball coach and it has worked well for all of our kids.

 

I know I am fortunate to be in the situation that I am in with Chris O'Hearn here at Mason County. He is great to work with and is very cooperative. I think that goes back to the fact that Chris cares more about kids than he does basketball. I hope that the same can be said for me regarding kids and football. I hope Chris O'Hearn is the basketball coach here as long as I am the football coach. Both our football and basketball program have improved dramatically over the past 13 years. Our basketball team has won two state titles but our football program has probably improved substantially more than basketball simply because we had a lot further to go than basketball. But, being good in basketball has not hurt our football and vice versa. In fact, the two complement each other and help the others be successful.

 

One summer at QB camp, I had a young man come to camp and he was wiped out in June. He was playing 3 sports in June, and trying to be a good teammate for all 3 sports. His dad called June, "grueling." That doesn't sound like the fun HS athletics should be. I think all 3 of his coaches were good men that were trying to work together- but in trying to be a good player/teammate he was attempting to do it all.

 

My dad was the football and wrestling coach at Boyle County HS. He was later the football and track coach at Mercer County HS. Guys like Raymond Webb(Frankfort), Frank Conyers(Jessamine), and Ed Rall(Boyle) coached more than one sport and encouraged their football kids to play all sports. Football coaches have a tradition and history of encouraging their kids to play multiple sports. I hope that is a tradition that continues because it is good for kids.

 

The BOE doesn't hire players/athletes to work/play for coaches. The BOE hires coaches to help young people be successful. I am not sure that is always the perspective- it seems like that gets twisted around. Of course we require our athletes to make the proper commitment to our program and team, but there should be a way that HS kids can be just that- kids - and enjoy playing several sports. I am not saying it is always easy and convenient, but we should try the best we can. Coach Harp's proposal and the June-July rule are along those lines and I support them.

 

A few other points:

 

1- Chris Lofton played football and was/is arguably the best shooter in the world. I think it's safe to say you can play football and still be a great basketball player.

 

2- All these rules can only go so far. It is important to hire coaches that love kids more than their sport at the HS level. In choosing our HS staff, or even selecting our staff for the all star game in 2005, my first priority was who loves kids as opposed to who loves football the most or who knows the most football. I understand there are coaches in both sports that disagree with me on these rules AND care about kids. But, even if we disagree, if we both are working for the betterment of kids, it will make it easier to work things out to help kids be successful.

 

3- I think it is ironic how coaches worry about their athletes getting hurt in other sports. Ours get hurt farming, tubing, on a 4 wheeler, etc. From our experience, those activities have injured more kids than other sports.

 

Thanks to guru and BGPreps for providing this forum. We are getting alot of emails on the listserve on these topics. Thanks guru!

 

David Buchanan

Mason County Football

Some of those kids are playing basketball, but not with their high school teams ... and frankly, most basketball coaches I know aren't all that thrilled with their kids being so involved in AAU programs. These days, they're basically a necessary evil.

I'm sure that is the truth, but more of what I was getting at was, basketball players will be working on basketball virtually all year, baseball players will be working on baseball all year, but football, again, has received more restrictions. Football already has more restrictions then any other sport, now there are more put in place.

 

I am sure there are basketball coaches that don't care for AAU, and I can understand why, but the fact still remains that those basketball players will be working on getting better, from competition in July, but the football players will not be able to in June.

Great Post coach. All to often, the betterment of kids is overlooked by adults trying to always get an edge.

 

 

Coach Harp's proposal is a good one. He is a wise man, wonderful person and a very good coach. I don't have any problems trusting him and have asked our administration to support his proposal.

 

I also asked our administration to support the June-July proposal.

 

I realize the kids can still play AAU basketball in July. The football kids can also still attend individual camps in June to be recruited. I am ok with working with kids in July as needed. Coach O'Hearn has always worked with our kids who needed to miss a summer basketball game to attend a football camp. Kelly Wells allowed Dustin Grutza to miss almost all of June to attend football camps. Chris Lofton missed alot of July but was there by the end of July ready to go and practice football. As July ends, we are not nearly as flexible. But, as much as we can, we try to make it work.

 

In our football program, June is the time for kids to play basketball, baseball, and attend football camps on an individual basis. It has worked well for us. Part of that is we have a year round weightclass. The kids start with me around July 10. By the time June 1 rolls around, our guys need a break from me. Hard to believe I know. :lol: Our basketball program has no team activities in July like our football team in June. We agreed to this in 1996 when Fred Hester was our basketball coach and it has worked well for all of our kids.

 

I know I am fortunate to be in the situation that I am in with Chris O'Hearn here at Mason County. He is great to work with and is very cooperative. I think that goes back to the fact that Chris cares more about kids than he does basketball. I hope that the same can be said for me regarding kids and football. I hope Chris O'Hearn is the basketball coach here as long as I am the football coach. Both our football and basketball program have improved dramatically over the past 13 years. Our basketball team has won two state titles but our football program has probably improved substantially more than basketball simply because we had a lot further to go than basketball. But, being good in basketball has not hurt our football and vice versa. In fact, the two complement each other and help the others be successful.

 

One summer at QB camp, I had a young man come to camp and he was wiped out in June. He was playing 3 sports in June, and trying to be a good teammate for all 3 sports. His dad called June, "grueling." That doesn't sound like the fun HS athletics should be. I think all 3 of his coaches were good men that were trying to work together- but in trying to be a good player/teammate he was attempting to do it all.

 

My dad was the football and wrestling coach at Boyle County HS. He was later the football and track coach at Mercer County HS. Guys like Raymond Webb(Frankfort), Frank Conyers(Jessamine), and Ed Rall(Boyle) coached more than one sport and encouraged their football kids to play all sports. Football coaches have a tradition and history of encouraging their kids to play multiple sports. I hope that is a tradition that continues because it is good for kids.

 

The BOE doesn't hire players/athletes to work/play for coaches. The BOE hires coaches to help young people be successful. I am not sure that is always the perspective- it seems like that gets twisted around. Of course we require our athletes to make the proper commitment to our program and team, but there should be a way that HS kids can be just that- kids - and enjoy playing several sports. I am not saying it is always easy and convenient, but we should try the best we can. Coach Harp's proposal and the June-July rule are along those lines and I support them.

 

A few other points:

 

1- Chris Lofton played football and was/is arguably the best shooter in the world. I think it's safe to say you can play football and still be a great basketball player.

 

2- All these rules can only go so far. It is important to hire coaches that love kids more than their sport at the HS level. In choosing our HS staff, or even selecting our staff for the all star game in 2005, my first priority was who loves kids as opposed to who loves football the most or who knows the most football. I understand there are coaches in both sports that disagree with me on these rules AND care about kids. But, even if we disagree, if we both are working for the betterment of kids, it will make it easier to work things out to help kids be successful.

 

3- I think it is ironic how coaches worry about their athletes getting hurt in other sports. Ours get hurt farming, tubing, on a 4 wheeler, etc. From our experience, those activities have injured more kids than other sports.

 

Thanks to guru and BGPreps for providing this forum. We are getting alot of emails on the listserve on these topics. Thanks guru!

 

David Buchanan

Mason County Football

Coach Harp's proposal is a good one. He is a wise man, wonderful person and a very good coach. I don't have any problems trusting him and have asked our administration to support his proposal........................

Coach thanks for providing your thought process and in put on this matter, and it seems that you have a great perspective and a great situation at Mason County.

 

If you don't mind, I have some topics that I would love to hear your thoughts on:

1. At most, if not all schools, there are very few student/athletes that play both football and basketball, as a coach, wouldn't you prefer to get to work with all the players that play football only during June (7 on 7 competitions with other schools)? I know that you may not have two or three players for those practices, but wouldn't it be better for you and the other 50 players to get some work in in June?

 

2. I know you may not be a coach that thinks that you get a lot out of 7 on 7, but don't you think that schools should be able to compete in tournaments at UK and other colleges in June? Those dates are set by the college coaches and are set around their schedule.

 

3. In most cases student/athletes are getting ready for the next sport season after the previous one is concluded, Shouldn't June and July be time for preparation for football. Spring football is not mandatory, mainly because of baseball season, once basketball is over, it is time for baseball preparation, so spring football is not mandatory, shouldn't June and July, the time after baseball season is over and the next sport is football, be preparation time for football.

 

I'm not saying that football should have special privileges, but there is simply more opportunities to get better at basketball and baseball through out the year then there is for football.

Ram- My answers in blue. Feel free to send me a pm. David

 

If you don't mind, I have some topics that I would love to hear your thoughts on:

1. At most, if not all schools, there are very few student/athletes that play both football and basketball, as a coach, wouldn't you prefer to get to work with all the players that play football only during June (7 on 7 competitions with other schools)? I know that you may not have two or three players for those practices, but wouldn't it be better for you and the other 50 players to get some work in in June? In June, I would like the kids to have an opportunity to do other things. They are with me from July 10 until June 1. They are ready for a break. Beginning in early July, I can do all the 7 on 7 that I want. As for the kids that don't play basketball, this is a great time to get on a college campus and work on football but in a different setting, and with a fresh set of eyes and coaching.

2. I know you may not be a coach that thinks that you get a lot out of 7 on 7, but don't you think that schools should be able to compete in tournaments at UK and other colleges in June? Those dates are set by the college coaches and are set around their schedule. Colleges can use June for their individual senior/junior evaluation camps, they can expand those days. These camps are being over run with big numbers. I would think more days to spread out evaluating potential signees would benefit colleges. Even if we had done 7 on 7 when Dustin was here, he would have been gone from us alot because he would be on other campuses being recruited. Again, those kids are not being deprived of working on a college campus for college coaches- but they are doing so as individuals. And, my job first and foremost is to look out for what is best for kids, not necessarily what is most convenient for college coaches and programs. I mean no disrespect when I say that. But, my first loyalty goes to my kids- including attending combines, etc. I kept Harry Lewis out of a combine one spring. It made some college coaches mad, but all of them had already said they wanted him at camp. Why take a chance on running a bad time at a combine when they want him at camp anyway?

3. In most cases student/athletes are getting ready for the next sport season after the previous one is concluded, Shouldn't June and July be time for preparation for football. Spring football is not mandatory, mainly because of baseball season, once basketball is over, it is time for baseball preparation, so spring football is not mandatory, shouldn't June and July, the time after baseball season is over and the next sport is football, be preparation time for football. Our basketball program doesn't get our kids until mid/late-November- I would like to push that back to December. I am fine with them getting June, we get July. That is ok with me. We do get alot done with the kids available in the spring. Again, we try to make it work the best we can.

Thanks for the input Coach Buchanan. I can see both sides of the coin, I just hate to see limitations placed on football, all the points you made are valid, I just like to see the football coaches have more flexibility.

 

And good luck on moving the basketball players back to December, I hope you are successful in that endeavor.

Leatherneck, I honestly was thinking of your reply when I posted this information. I pretty much knew that we would see this in a similar way.

 

The limitation of June for football teams was done by coaches, a small number of coaches, who I think thought they were helping the kids by letting them have more time for both basketball and football. But, like I said before, I think the basketball coaches were talking out of both sides of their mouths because, they knew that their players would still be playing basketball in July with their traveling teams. The majority of the football coaches are/were not happy about this move, and I don't blame them. Some coaches may not care to much about 7 on 7 competitions, but it is just another tool that coaches can use to make their teams better, and it has now been restricted.

 

.

 

 

I will make it clear that I am against the June/July and the taking of the off week. We in my opinion have taken a step back in the so called movement that is to make KY a football state. I can tell you Ram and Leatherneck that very and I mean very few coaches were informed of the June/ July thing which I personally feel that the few spoke for the many and it was not to the best of All in football. You do not see any regulations like this being put on basketball. I feel we need to leave well enough alone or we are going to see ourselves go backwards instead of forwards

My argument would be that if we are trying to make Kentucky a football state wouldn't we model what we do after other football states? I don't know that Ohio, Georgia, Alabama, or any other football state in the south (I know Ohio isn't south, but they're close and have a lot of tradition) has to deal with all of this red tape just to practice football. I think it's best that the coaches regulate what their kids do at their individual schools...they need to work together. I don't think the state coming through with another sweeping reform (like banning some football activities in June) is really in everyone's best interest.

Exactly sportsfan08.

 

Can someone please list all the concessions that basketball and baseball have made to benefit football?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Que the crickets.

Ram- My answers in blue. Feel free to send me a pm. David

 

If you don't mind, I have some topics that I would love to hear your thoughts on:

1. At most, if not all schools, there are very few student/athletes that play both football and basketball, as a coach, wouldn't you prefer to get to work with all the players that play football only during June (7 on 7 competitions with other schools)? I know that you may not have two or three players for those practices, but wouldn't it be better for you and the other 50 players to get some work in in June? In June, I would like the kids to have an opportunity to do other things. They are with me from July 10 until June 1. They are ready for a break. Beginning in early July, I can do all the 7 on 7 that I want. As for the kids that don't play basketball, this is a great time to get on a college campus and work on football but in a different setting, and with a fresh set of eyes and coaching.

2. I know you may not be a coach that thinks that you get a lot out of 7 on 7, but don't you think that schools should be able to compete in tournaments at UK and other colleges in June? Those dates are set by the college coaches and are set around their schedule. Colleges can use June for their individual senior/junior evaluation camps, they can expand those days. These camps are being over run with big numbers. I would think more days to spread out evaluating potential signees would benefit colleges. Even if we had done 7 on 7 when Dustin was here, he would have been gone from us alot because he would be on other campuses being recruited. Again, those kids are not being deprived of working on a college campus for college coaches- but they are doing so as individuals. And, my job first and foremost is to look out for what is best for kids, not necessarily what is most convenient for college coaches and programs. I mean no disrespect when I say that. But, my first loyalty goes to my kids- including attending combines, etc. I kept Harry Lewis out of a combine one spring. It made some college coaches mad, but all of them had already said they wanted him at camp. Why take a chance on running a bad time at a combine when they want him at camp anyway?

3. In most cases student/athletes are getting ready for the next sport season after the previous one is concluded, Shouldn't June and July be time for preparation for football. Spring football is not mandatory, mainly because of baseball season, once basketball is over, it is time for baseball preparation, so spring football is not mandatory, shouldn't June and July, the time after baseball season is over and the next sport is football, be preparation time for football. Our basketball program doesn't get our kids until mid/late-November- I would like to push that back to December. I am fine with them getting June, we get July. That is ok with me. We do get alot done with the kids available in the spring. Again, we try to make it work the best we can.

 

Coach, out of respect I sent my thoughts to this post in a pm. Read it over and let me know your thoughts when you get a chance. LN

Football is fortunate to be the only major sport that has 100% of their roster on the 1st day of practice and throughout the season...... basketball teams sometimes wait 4-6 weeks into practice to get all players following football. Baseball seems to be the sport that gets the shorter end of the stick...getting kids close to or after the 1st game due to basketball and having to deal with Spring Football.

Football is fortunate to be the only major sport that has 100% of their roster on the 1st day of practice and throughout the season...... basketball teams sometimes wait 4-6 weeks into practice to get all players following football. Baseball seems to be the sport that gets the shorter end of the stick...getting kids close to or after the 1st game due to basketball and having to deal with Spring Football.

 

A lot of that has to do with seasons being too long! Both basketball and football season's with extended post season play are too long.