Baptism

[formerkywrestler]

Here you go.

[formerkywrestler]

I am not comparing the two. Each is Scripturally wrong.

 

In my best Tom Cruise from A few Good Men voice......

 

If infant baptism is okay, than why the personal acceptance at 13? WHy the two orders? If baptism is acceptable and covers, why the need for the ceremony at 13? Why the two orders, Colonel Jessup?

 

I don't see anywhere in your passage that says infant baptism doesn't count. You're on base on the issue of choice/free will, but I think that it's a choice as to whether or not you want to follow Christ's teachings that's important more so than actually choosing to be baptized.

 

If you have read the previous threads on this subject, you'll remember that Catholics believe in Original Sin. The stain of sin must be washed away before ANYONE can enter heaven. Thus, if a baby dies unbaptized, they will not see the face of God. Thus, we protect the souls of infants by baptizing them at birth. After a child reaches the a "age of reason", and after at least a year of preparation, a child may choose to continue in the Catholic faith, of their own free will. But, as parents, we took care of the original sin, and ensured our innocent childs ability to go to heaven by baptizing them at birth.

 

ROCKMOM, an infant passes away and isn't baptized. This baby is in hell?

 

Someone gonna start a new Thread?

 

AL

 

A devout (and saved) baptist kills a gay man claiming the dead man was an abomination in God's eyes.

 

Is he going to Hades?

 

Once saved always saved right?

 

More fodder for another thread?

 

 

I think this is where we are at. Interesting debate.

[rockmom]

I'd like to share some input from a VERY learned friend, with even more learned friends:

 

A few years ago John Paul II or Benedict XVI (with the advice of bishops and theologians) changed the church's theory that unbaptized infants never seeing God. Importan to note: theory not teaching because it never made it beyond the point of being more than a theory, it never was dogma or doctrine. That is why not much fuss was made when JPII/Benedict XVI (forget which one) changed the churches teaching about it.

 

Why baptize infants? Because our early church fathers practiced infant baptism as witnessed the apostles do so and we believe we are called to continue such tradition. The bible mentions several times of Paul baptizing ENTIRE households. Common sense would tell someone that there were children under the age of reason being baptized then. Also, the possibility of all of those kids in that entire household accepting Christianity at the same time together by their own CHOICE rather than just following mom and dad's lead is pretty remote. In many cases the father accepted the teaching first and through his role as the head of the household the rest followed his lead and gradually accepted the teaching also.

 

Lastly, some of those who witnessed the Apostles and saw their actions -and were literate (the minority in those days)-noted that the Apostles baptized entire families and those "in their mothers' arms" also. If a child is still being held by its mother, I feel safe assuming they were below the age of reason and mothers were not carrying around teenagers back then.

 

Evangelicals harp about infant baptism due to Jesus not being baptized as an infant BUT, he did receive the ritual of circumcision which "officially" brought him into the Jewish faith just as baptism brings babies "officially" into the Catholic/Lutheran/Episcopal/Eastern Orthodox/etc. faith.

[spindoc]

When on the cross, Christ told the criminal hanging right there beside him that "today you will be in paradise with me". Safe to say that there wasn't time for a dunk in the creek. So, are you saying that this man didn't make it to heaven? Hard to contradict the words of Jesus here.

[KY Thorobred]

When on the cross, Christ told the criminal hanging right there beside him that "today you will be in paradise with me". Safe to say that there wasn't time for a dunk in the creek. So, are you saying that this man didn't make it to heaven? Hard to contradict the words of Jesus here.

 

:thumb:

[cch5432]

A fairly prominent American (Catholic) theologian, Marcellino D'Ambrosio, when speaking on the idea of limbo- which was as RM mentioned, a theory- said that Cardinal Sheen did not believe in limbo; rather, those who died before being physically baptized were “baptized through their blood” (martyrs) or “baptized through their desire." As for babies that can did not make to baptism or were aborted are baptized through our desire

[rockmom]

From Pope Leo I

 

"And because of the transgression of the first man, the whole stock of the human race was tainted; no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn, as the apostle [Paul] says, ‘For as many of you as were baptized in Christ did put on Christ; there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . ‘ [Gal. 3:27–28]"

 

 

From Catholic.com

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

 

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

 

Specific to baptizing infants:

Although Fundamentalists are the most recent critics of infant baptism, opposition to infant baptism is not a new phenomenon. In the Middle Ages, some groups developed that rejected infant baptism, e.g., the Waldenses and Catharists. Later, the Anabaptists ("re-baptizers") echoed them, claiming that infants are incapable of being baptized validly. But the historic Christian Church has always held that Christ’s law applies to infants as well as adults, for Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of belonging to his kingdom. He asserted such even for children: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:14).

 

More detail is given in Luke’s account of this event, which reads: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16).

[CoachBuckett]

When on the cross, Christ told the criminal hanging right there beside him that "today you will be in paradise with me". Safe to say that there wasn't time for a dunk in the creek. So, are you saying that this man didn't make it to heaven? Hard to contradict the words of Jesus here.

 

Baptism is the act of obedience. Baptism alone will not get you into the Pearly Gates. You are saved the moment that you allow Jesus into your heart and make the confession that he is your Savior.

 

So if you are on your death bed and you make a public confession that you believe Jesus is Lord and Savior then you are saved and will have eternal life.

[Cameraman]

Baptism is the act of obedience. Baptism alone will not get you into the Pearly Gates. You are saved the moment that you allow Jesus into your heart and make the confession that he is your Savior.

 

So if you are on your death bed and you make a public confession that you believe Jesus is Lord and Savior then you are saved and will have eternal life.

 

Exactly. And just because you ask the lord to save you when your 20 years old and then go live a life of sin, I don't think you'll get into heaven. You have to at least make an attempt to live following god's path. God says no one is perfect... But you can't get saved and then break every commandment.

[Alabama Larry]

Jesus has the power and sayso to save anyone he chooses if they show a true repentance heart. He did that with the thief.

 

Jesus died and could no longer save anyone like he did. He also saved others during his time on earth. He was under the old Law. Once he dided we had to do what he preached about. he fulfilled the New Law....So there became a pattern of...

 

1) Belief

 

2) Confessing

 

3) Repenting

 

4) Believers Baptism

 

Mark 16:16 Those who Believe and are Baptized will be saved, those who don't believe will be condemed.

 

Infants cannot believe and not believe.

 

The heads of the churches who say so are men. I'm quoting Jesus.

 

Infants can be blessed at a very early age, and I agree with this.

 

God didn't create infants to have them die and live eternaly in Hell. Thats why he is God.

[Plato]

Jesus has the power and sayso to save anyone he chooses if they show a true repentance heart. He did that with the thief.

 

Jesus died and could no longer save anyone like he did. He also saved others during his time on earth. He was under the old Law. Once he dided we had to do what he preached about. he fulfilled the New Law....So there became a pattern of...

 

1) Belief

 

2) Confessing

 

3) Repenting

 

4) Believers Baptism

 

Mark 16:16 Those who Believe and are Baptized will be saved, those who don't believe will be condemed.

 

Infants cannot believe and not believe.

 

The heads of the churches who say so are men. I'm quoting Jesus.

 

Infants can be blessed at a very early age, and I agree with this.

 

God didn't create infants to have them die and live eternaly in Hell. Thats why he is God.

 

Interesting point, but it causes me to wonder - did God create infants to have them grow up and die and live eternally in Hell? I know that there are a lot of people who struggle with this entire idea of punishment, but the argument that it's not what God wants doesn't hold up or else we'd all be going to Heaven.

[formerkywrestler]

What happens if someone is baptized at birth but never does a confirmation around age 13? Does the baptism expire?

[ladiesbballcoach]

What happens if someone is baptized at birth but never does a confirmation around age 13? Does the baptism expire?

 

great question

[ladiesbballcoach]

When on the cross, Christ told the criminal hanging right there beside him that "today you will be in paradise with me". Safe to say that there wasn't time for a dunk in the creek. So, are you saying that this man didn't make it to heaven? Hard to contradict the words of Jesus here.

 

:thumb:

 

Well considering Jesus had not died yet to pay the price for our sins and had not risen to prove who he was and had not given us the great commission, it would seem he would fall under the rules of Jesus' day.

 

Not to mention, Jesus had the authority to forgive the man of his sins. No one on this planet whether he/she be minister, preacher, priest, pope, or bgp poster has that authority.

 

I agree with the posters who say baptism has to be followed by a life that is trying to be pleasing to God.

[ladiesbballcoach]

Another question for Catholics that find themselves voting for a pro-choice candidate.

 

If your faith says that baptism is the only way to save an infant from hades, does the abortions that we allow to be performed in this country doom those babies to Hades?