You provided a scripture, but not scriptural support. :isurrender:

 

Don't you even want to take a crack at the other question?

 

What is the difference?

 

Jesus tells us to go out to all nations and make disciples. That is what I am trying to do.

How about, so that we can live the abundant life that Paul takes about . . . "so that you can have life and have it more abundantly".

 

As I have said a bunch - we have so narrowed the Good News to deal with only the afterlife that we have essentially forgotten the words of the Lord's prayer " . . thy Kingdom COME, thy will be done, ON EARTH" - that ain't talkin about when we die, that is talking about now. For me having the Faith OF Jesus is about bringing the Kingdom to earth NOW, it is not about fire insurance later.

 

Matthew 25:31ff doesn't talk about baptism or believing anything, it talks about living the abundant life based upon how you treat people. It even says that some who get "selected" to go to heaven didn't even know they were serving Jesus . . "Lord when did we feed you or give you drink or visit you when you were in heaven and Jesus answered . . Surely whatever you have done to the least of these you have done to me."

 

That fits with what Romans 2 says.

Absolutely.

 

Seriously, I understand the nature of Original Sin but have not read an argument based in Scripture that shows infant baptism. I am still waiting for it.

 

Instead I see examples of people choosing baptism or unclear examples. If I am practicing it wrong, I am eager to learn the correct way to do it.

 

 

The reason I ask is that everytime someone posts something to support their position, you immediately tell them they're wrong. For instance, every scripture I've offered to support Infant Baptism has been discounted by you as not good enough.

 

I'm honestly to the point of not bothering with this anymore. I've provided an exorbitant amount of backup over the years. I've provided links to several sites, INCLUDING the VATICAN! Yet, it's never good enough. I'm honestly feeling you want to convert me from my faith, not understand my faith.

No, I don't believe that the infant has had an inner conversion. The conversion is going to have to have taken place later in life.

 

So since you and I agree on that, why do we care if they are being sprinkled as infants?

 

The Catholic infant baptismal ceremony contains a long liturgical list about the family and child's commitment to the church family and vice versa, identical to our baby dedication. With the exception of the water sprinkling, they are the same.

 

If baptism is a personal choice and Jesus indicated that we should baptize people in the Great Commission, then it is inherent that we get it right.

I think this is one of those issues where a message board is inadequate.

 

If I had each of you in person I could initiate a discussion that each one of us understood, but we simply aren't good enough at explaining our positions through typing to do anything but say the same thing in eighty different ways and end up wanting to kill one another.

The reason I ask is that everytime someone posts something to support their position, you immediately tell them they're wrong. For instance, every scripture I've offered to support Infant Baptism has been discounted by you as not good enough.

 

I'm honestly to the point of not bothering with this anymore. I've provided an exorbitant amount of backup over the years. I've provided links to several sites, INCLUDING the VATICAN! Yet, it's never good enough. I'm honestly feeling you want to convert me from my faith, not understand my faith.

 

I have learned a lot about Catholicism from our conversations and consider myself better served for that knowledge.

 

That does not mean I have to agree with you on the matters that I disagree with the Catholic faith on. Does it?

 

I have asked for Scriptural proof and if it was lacking, I followed up on that.

 

I can tell you honestly that when I started bgp I had serious concerns about how much Catholicism was truly a part of Christianity. It was more from my ignorance on the matter than anything.

 

You mainly are responsible for educating me and I fully consider Catholics to be my Christian brothers.

 

I would not have said that pre-bgp.

 

That does not mean we agree on everything. Just like I don't agree with speaking in tongues or only taking Communion once a year or not allowing drums in worship services.

 

But many of these isssues are not essential to have correct in terms of salvation. Baptism might be and it is essential we try to get it right.

I think this is one of those issues where a message board is inadequate.

 

If I had each of you in person I could initiate a discussion that each one of us understood, but we simply aren't good enough at explaining our positions through typing to do anything but say the same thing in eighty different ways and end up wanting to kill one another.

 

:thumb: except I have learned more on the matter. I now know the Scriptures used and the basis for infant baptism. I did not know that before.

The reason I ask is that everytime someone posts something to support their position, you immediately tell them they're wrong. For instance, every scripture I've offered to support Infant Baptism has been discounted by you as not good enough.

 

I'm honestly to the point of not bothering with this anymore. I've provided an exorbitant amount of backup over the years. I've provided links to several sites, INCLUDING the VATICAN! Yet, it's never good enough. I'm honestly feeling you want to convert me from my faith, not understand my faith.

 

That is unfair. I have posted in this thread that I agree with something acemonia posted and we hardly ever agree.

 

I thought we were discussing things and I put forth the counter issue and if a person has a good point on that, then I can be swayed to that side.

 

Of my posts in this thread, 6 answers questions asked.

3 I agree with another poster.

2 I pose a question for someone to answer to further my understanding.

1 I did argue a point and say essentially they were wrong.

I have learned a lot about Catholicism from our conversations and consider myself better served for that knowledge.

 

That does not mean I have to agree with you on the matters that I disagree with the Catholic faith on. Does it?

 

I have asked for Scriptural proof and if it was lacking, I followed up on that.

 

I can tell you honestly that when I started bgp I had serious concerns about how much Catholicism was truly a part of Christianity. It was more from my ignorance on the matter than anything.

 

You mainly are responsible for educating me and I fully consider Catholics to be my Christian brothers.

 

I would not have said that pre-bgp.

 

That does not mean we agree on everything. Just like I don't agree with speaking in tongues or only taking Communion once a year or not allowing drums in worship services.

 

But many of these isssues are not essential to have correct in terms of salvation. Baptism might be and it is essential we try to get it right.

 

I don't ask anyone to agree with me. I'm not an evangelist, a priest, a nun or even a religion teacher. I'm simply a person providing the answers to questions. Which, I admit, I find ludicrous, because if someone were truely interested, they'd have taken the initiative to find that information for themselves. Honestly, it's like everything else...a google search away. The responses to my posts, which are NEVER posted in such a way as to imply that I believe everyone else is wrong, is to be told that the Catholic Church is wrong. Well, then, why ask if one is convinced? I just don't understand the intent.

 

 

 

I think this is one of those issues where a message board is inadequate.

 

If I had each of you in person I could initiate a discussion that each one of us understood, but we simply aren't good enough at explaining our positions through typing to do anything but say the same thing in eighty different ways and end up wanting to kill one another.

 

 

It's possible, but I'm skeptical. I honestly have members of my own family, and have had co-workers, and then the infamous preacher at my high school boyfriend's church, who've flat out told me what I believe is wrong. It's not as simple as speaking in person. It's much more complex. It's about listening...in person or any other medium.

I don't ask anyone to agree with me. I'm not an evangelist, a priest, a nun or even a religion teacher. I'm simply a person providing the answers to questions. Which, I admit, I find ludicrous, because if someone were truely interested, they'd have taken the initiative to find that information for themselves. Honestly, it's like everything else...a google search away. The responses to my posts, which are NEVER posted in such a way as to imply that I believe everyone else is wrong, is to be told that the Catholic Church is wrong. Well, then, why ask if one is convinced? I just don't understand the intent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's possible, but I'm skeptical. I honestly have members of my own family, and have had co-workers, and then the infamous preacher at my high school boyfriend's church, who've flat out told me what I believe is wrong. It's not as simple as speaking in person. It's much more complex. It's about listening...in person or any other medium.

 

I don't want a book answer I want an answer from a person living that life every single day. I want the answer from someone that this is the core of their foundation. And I feel you and ccch5432 represent that well for me and do a better job helping me understand than reading off a page on the Internet.

 

And I am lazy.

 

I truly do have high respect for you and your faith. You have taught me that the CAtholic faith does a better job in the communities with demonstrating their faith than we do. Your church lives the life of helping out in the community than we do. Your church does a great job calling out their members for not doing what they are supposed to (abortion issue).

 

But honestly, I prefer the conversation to learning about a faith than a study. It is my best style of learning.

:lol: I posted those in my first post. :lol:

I did not see that. But I gave the exact verses so I win.

:confused::confused::confused:On bolded.

Those who die for Christ before physical baptism through water (and of course the Holy Spirit) are baptized by their blood, for example. Imagine a catechumen who is going through the process of becoming a Catholic. Or imagine an atheist dying, and making a conversion on their deathbed. They die before getting sprinkled with water. Are they condemned to Hell? No, they are baptized through their desire. Likewise, babies who can not think for themselves (or have been aborted) are baptized through our desire. The water being sprinkled is a symbol- as Hearsay said, an outward expression of an inward conversion.

 

And keep in mind that it does not matter whether a person was baptized as an infant or as an adult- if they reject Christ eventually, then it does not matter. You don't get salvation merely by being baptized.

This is circumstantial at best to support infant baptism. Children, absolutely but you can only guess that infants were involved.

I'm as anti-abortion as you but where does the Bible directly condemn abortion? If you want to get so caught up in finding a specific verse relevant to every single moral dilemma, then you are going to have to use some so-called "circumstantial" evidence. That is why I believe the Bible is a guideline to deciphering morality, not an Ikea instruction manual. The answers are there but due to cultural differences and millions of other factors they aren't in the exact references we use today. In no way am I saying that the Bible is not relevant- just that you will have a difficult time finding the exact verse that relates to each moral issue.

I don't want a book answer I want an answer from a person living that life every single day. I want the answer from someone that this is the core of their foundation. And I feel you and ccch5432 represent that well for me and do a better job helping me understand than reading off a page on the Internet.

 

And I am lazy.

 

I truly do have high respect for you and your faith. You have taught me that the CAtholic faith does a better job in the communities with demonstrating their faith than we do. Your church lives the life of helping out in the community than we do. Your church does a great job calling out their members for not doing what they are supposed to (abortion issue).

 

But honestly, I prefer the conversation to learning about a faith than a study. It is my best style of learning.

 

 

That's crazy! You don't want a book answer, but you want scriptural back up?!

I did not see that. But I gave the exact verses so I win.

 

Those who die for Christ before physical baptism through water (and of course the Holy Spirit) are baptized by their blood, for example. Imagine a catechumen who is going through the process of becoming a Catholic. Or imagine an atheist dying, and making a conversion on their deathbed. They die before getting sprinkled with water. Are they condemned to Hell? No, they are baptized through their desire. Likewise, babies who can not think for themselves (or have been aborted) are baptized through our desire. The water being sprinkled is a symbol- as Hearsay said, an outward expression of an inward conversion.

 

And keep in mind that it does not matter whether a person was baptized as an infant or as an adult- if they reject Christ eventually, then it does not matter. You don't get salvation merely by being baptized.

 

I'm as anti-abortion as you but where does the Bible directly condemn abortion? If you want to get so caught up in finding a specific verse relevant to every single moral dilemma, then you are going to have to use some so-called "circumstantial" evidence. That is why I believe the Bible is a guideline to deciphering morality, not an Ikea instruction manual. The answers are there but due to cultural differences and millions of other factors they aren't in the exact references we use today. In no way am I saying that the Bible is not relevant- just that you will have a difficult time finding the exact verse that relates to each moral issue.

 

Last paragraph, good point.

 

On the bolded word, is that the parent's desire, other Catholics desire, whose desire? I really desired my children to be baptized but not sure my desire covered them.

 

I can tell you this was my biggest concern as a parent, my child's acceptance of Christ, as they were growing up. Worried me to death until they did.

 

Now I worry they will live a true Christian life seeking the Lord in all they do.

 

That 3rd paragraph is a loaded one in the old once saved always saved debate. I fall with you on the not always saved side.

That's crazy! You don't want a book answer, but you want scriptural back up?!

 

Yes and no.

 

I want the Scriptural answer but I love having the explanation and reasoning by someone who is living their faith. And you were talking about googling not Scripture.

 

Like ccCH5432, just gave.

On the bolded word, is that the parent's desire, other Catholics desire, whose desire? I really desired my children to be baptized but not sure my desire covered them.

First of all, most of what I have said is not Catholic dogma or anything. As Rockmom said earlier, the Catholic Church has some things that are up to interpretation, theological theories and such. Limbo was on of these, I have another perfect example in mind having to do with Mary but I'm not prepared to defend it to non-Catholics :lol:

 

Anyways, as for your question, who knows if it is explicitly stated by any theologians? We pray for an end to abortion and we should (I have) prayed for the souls who have died because of abortion. I guess that is the desire.

 

In the Catechism, it says that infants who die before baptism are "left at the mercy of God." And in the end, aren't we all? Cause we have said it before- none of us get what we deserve or we'd all burn. By the mercy and grace of God do we make it.