First of all, most of what I have said is not Catholic dogma or anything. As Rockmom said earlier, the Catholic Church has some things that are up to interpretation, theological theories and such. Limbo was on of these, I have another perfect example in mind having to do with Mary but I'm not prepared to defend it to non-Catholics :lol:

 

Anyways, as for your question, who knows if it is explicitly stated by any theologians? We pray for an end to abortion and we should (I have) prayed for the souls who have died because of abortion. I guess that is the desire.

 

In the Catechism, it says that infants who die before baptism are "left at the mercy of God." And in the end, aren't we all? Cause we have said it before- none of us get what we deserve or we'd all burn. By the mercy and grace of God do we make it.

 

Can we have an amen from the choir?:thumb:

 

The limbo thing I am very ignorant on and have tons of questions but I am afraid I have exhausted RM's patience and will not pursue it.

 

Your comment on abortion and praying for them led to a ponderance for me. Could those innocent souls be considered martyr's blood?

Can we have an amen from the choir?:thumb:

 

The limbo thing I am very ignorant on and have tons of questions but I am afraid I have exhausted RM's patience and will not pursue it.

 

Your comment on abortion and praying for them led to a ponderance for me. Could those innocent souls be considered martyr's blood?

You ponder faster than me I have no idea. We're getting down to semantics though.....

The reason I ask is that everytime someone posts something to support their position, you immediately tell them they're wrong. For instance, every scripture I've offered to support Infant Baptism has been discounted by you as not good enough.

 

I'm honestly to the point of not bothering with this anymore. I've provided an exorbitant amount of backup over the years. I've provided links to several sites, INCLUDING the VATICAN! Yet, it's never good enough. I'm honestly feeling you want to convert me from my faith, not understand my faith.

 

Don't forget that there are other spectators reading these threads...even if we don't always post in them. I've learned a great deal about Catholicism from you (and others) on this board.

 

As for your links, that's fine. But, it's also helpful to hear the view explained by a regular person as opposed to some Catholic theologian from Rome. I know that its been very informative and helpful for me to discuss some of these issues with you (and others) on this board. I can read stuff on the net all day, but a real conversation with a real Catholic offers something more.

 

But, for me, I feel like I've come a long way in my understanding of the Catholic denomination...thanks in no small part to you (and others:lol:) on here. I do understand your point about re-visiting these issues time after time. That's why I haven't bothered posting in this thread. I'm pretty sure I've had this discussion with you before. I don't have a problem with infant Baptism...I tend to agree with Hearsay in that it is not much different than a dedication or christening from a Protestant church. Basically the same purpose/point.

It's possible, but I'm skeptical. I honestly have members of my own family, and have had co-workers, and then the infamous preacher at my high school boyfriend's church, who've flat out told me what I believe is wrong. It's not as simple as speaking in person. It's much more complex. It's about listening...in person or any other medium.

 

In fairness, that argument swings both ways...and both sides are wrong. Any Catholic who believes that salvation is impossible outside of "the Catholic" church is wrong. And, any Protestant who believes that salvation is impossible for a Catholic is wrong. But, there are many on both sides who believe that.

Heresay...the whole population from the Old Testament never heard the Gospel....is Moses/Jonah/Daniel etc. in Hell? I'll find some scripture in the NT for you.

 

Tramp, dude/dudette you are preaching to the choir, but you can't ignore Mark 16:16/1st Peter 3:18/Acts 2:38

 

I hope we can be civil to each other, and telling each other we are "wrong" on our beliefs isn't fair. Remember there are posters who come over here to look and we need to show them we can differ but still have respect for others beliefs.

Heresay...the whole population from the Old Testament never heard the Gospel....is Moses/Jonah/Daniel etc. in Hell? I'll find some scripture in the NT for you.

 

Tramp, dude/dudette you are preaching to the choir, but you can't ignore Mark 16:16/1st Peter 3:18/Acts 2:38

 

I hope we can be civil to each other, and telling each other we are "wrong" on our beliefs isn't fair. Remember there are posters who come over here to look and we need to show them we can differ but still have respect for others beliefs.

 

AL where is the Scripture about Jesus visiting the dead or something like that? That would be an interesting thread on it.

^http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell

 

The article on the Harrowing of Hell has a number of scriptural references in it.

CC, the Bible says baptism is "for the answering of a good conscience towards God." For me it is symbolic that we have had a spiritual part with Christ's death, burial, and ressurection.

 

You've used that phrase a lot but I'm having a hard time remembering where it is in scripture. Can you cite the text please?

You've used that phrase a lot but I'm having a hard time remembering where it is in scripture. Can you cite the text please?

 

I think its in 1 Peter. If not, try 2 Peter.

 

If not one of those, then I don't know either. :lol:

If I ever needed any reminder of why Martin Luther scared the living daylights out of Thomas More, I just got it in this thread. If we get 13 people into a room, they all have 13 thoughts about what baptism means and when it should be given. :lol:

 

I stayed away from this discussion for a long time because they always tend to do more harm than good. In any case, I've never seen anything that suggests the practice of infant baptism is wrong. In fact, of all the countless pieces of Catholic doctrine, I've never understood why this one gets people so up in arms. Just as the Old Covenant was entered into through circumcision of infants, the New Covenant is entered into through baptism.

 

Trampler, in any debate or argument, the burden for proof is on the party advocating change or divergence from the established norm. I see nothing in scripture that expressly forbids our 2,000-year-old practice of baptising infants, so it seems to me that the onus of demonstrating that our practice is incorrect is on those asserting that infant baptism is wrong.

 

The proof comes from John refusing to baptize those at the River Jordan, who had not brought forth fruits of repentance. Proof is required from your standpoint to ever demonstrate this being done, even once, in the Bible.

The proof comes from John refusing to baptize those at the River Jordan, who had not brought forth fruits of repentance. Proof is required from your standpoint to ever demonstrate this being done, even once, in the Bible.

 

It would really help your arguments more if you would cite the texts you are speaking of so that we all may have the opportunity to read and discuss them. :thumb:

It would really help your arguments more if you would cite the texts you are speaking of so that we all may have the opportunity to read and discuss them. :thumb:

 

Not real good with chapter and verse, Htz. I don't study the Bible that way, but I can assure you it's in there. I do know there are some good Bible Concordances on-line, if you can't put your hands on your hardback copy.