United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)

 

(Paraphrasing from Book on my Bookshelf: The Pursuit of Justice Kermit Hall & John Patrick)

 

Wong Kim Ark, borin in the United States to two Chineese, non-citizen Parents. The court ruled that the 14th Amendment guarantees US citizenship to all persons born in the United States, even if their parents are not US Citizens.

 

There was not a mention of Natural Born Citizenship, but Citizenship at birth. Some people treat them as one and the same.

 

While the dissent in this case is not officially cited as an interpretation of the law, it can help what the view of the Courts opinion is.

 

Dissent: "...the children of foreigners, happening to be born to them while passing through the country, whether of royal parentage or not, or whether of the Mongolian, Malay or other race, were eligible to the presidency, while children of our citizens, born abroad, were not".

 

Although "Natural Born Citizen" is not expressly defined, the Court held that Citizenship at Birth was given to Wong Kim Ark, and the dissenting Justices felt that Citizenship at Birth allowed a person eligible to the presidency. It could be argued that this court felt that Jus Solis only gave a person Natural Born Citizenship.

 

This would apply if President Elect Obama was born in America(I belive he was).

 

This case would also be important if you are a Bobby Jindal supporter, and want him to run for President. If President Elect Obama were somehow to be found inelligible because both Parents were not Citizens, Jindal would also be ineligible since neither of his parents were citizens when he was born. I think Jindals mother was 3 months pregnant with him, when thier family arrived in the United States.

United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)

 

(Paraphrasing from Book on my Bookshelf: The Pursuit of Justice Kermit Hall & John Patrick)

 

Wong Kim Ark, borin in the United States to two Chineese, non-citizen Parents. The court ruled that the 14th Amendment guarantees US citizenship to all persons born in the United States, even if their parents are not US Citizens.

 

There was not a mention of Natural Born Citizenship, but Citizenship at birth. Some people treat them as one and the same.

 

While the dissent in this case is not officially cited as an interpretation of the law, it can help what the view of the Courts opinion is.

 

Dissent: "...the children of foreigners, happening to be born to them while passing through the country, whether of royal parentage or not, or whether of the Mongolian, Malay or other race, were eligible to the presidency, while children of our citizens, born abroad, were not".

 

Although "Natural Born Citizen" is not expressly defined, the Court held that Citizenship at Birth was given to Wong Kim Ark, and the dissenting Justices felt that Citizenship at Birth allowed a person eligible to the presidency. It could be argued that this court felt that Jus Solis only gave a person Natural Born Citizenship.

 

This would apply if President Elect Obama was born in America(I belive he was).

 

This case would also be important if you are a Bobby Jindal supporter, and want him to run for President. If President Elect Obama were somehow to be found inelligible because both Parents were not Citizens, Jindal would also be ineligible since neither of his parents were citizens when he was born. I think Jindals mother was 3 months pregnant with him, when thier family arrived in the United States.

 

Thanks for the case cite. :thumb:

 

I think a precedent is already there IMHO.

:lol: Covercorner, give up. No one is reading this thread.

 

The heart of the case is that "natural-born citizen" is never specifically defined.

 

 

I'm reading it thank you.

 

And what I'm hearing from Cover Corner and documents that this has nothing really to do with Obama but the definition. But it appears to me a practice (if not definition) has been established.

I'm reading it thank you.

 

And what I'm hearing from Cover Corner and documents that this has nothing really to do with Obama but the definition. But it appears to me a practice (if not definition) has been established.

 

:thumb::thumb: You and Farva seem to have been reading it. And I happen to agree with you, I don't think it will prove that Obama is not eligible. I do think that it is an excellent opportunity to set a precedent, and perhaps provide some kind of vetting process for checking the eligibility of Presidential candidates (because if there was some process, this would not be happening)

I've been reading as well. Although, covercorner pretty much clarified any confusions I had by establishing what the actual issue was.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23736254/

 

Anyone remember this story?

 

State Department employees snooped through the passport files of three presidential candidates — Sens. Barack Obama, Hillary Rodham Clinton and John McCain — and the department's inspector general is investigating.

 

So what does it take to get a Passport in the US?

 

http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html

 

STEP 2: Submit Evidence of U.S. Citizenship

 

When applying for a U.S. passport in person, evidence of U.S. citizenship must be submitted with Form DS-11. All documentation submitted as citizenship evidence will be returned to you. These documents will be delivered with your newly issued U.S. passport or in a separate mailing.

 

Primary Evidence of U.S. Citizenship (One of the following):

Previously issued, undamaged U.S. Passport

Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state*

Consular Report of Birth Abroad or Certification of Birth

Naturalization Certificate

Certificate of Citizenship

 

 

*A certified birth certificate has a registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar’s signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar's office, which must be within 1 year of your birth. Please note, some short (abstract) versions of birth certificates may not be acceptable for passport purposes.

 

NOTE: If you do not have primary evidence of U.S. citizenship or your U.S. birth certificate does not meet the requirements, please see Secondary Evidence of U.S. Citizenship.

 

 

Covercorner Notes: Some short abstract versions (The Certificate of Live Birth posted on http://www.factcheck.orgwould be an abstract version of a Birth Certificate) may not be acceptable. It is not noted which are and which are not. Personal stroy: I used my Certificate of Live Birth(paper version) to obtain my US Passport.

 

Conclusion: Mr. Obama has some sort of Birth Record on file with the US State Department in order to obtain his US Passport. Is the birth record on file the COLB, or the "Vault Copy"? That is unkown, but if he was to recieve a passport, then the US State Department has either accepted as fact what they were provided, or they are complicit in fraud. There is at least one official Federal government agency that has access to his(and Senator McCains, and Senator Clintons) birth records. Since the information the State Department has is confidential, we cannot directly confirm if the information matches what was provided by the released COLB, which states the Location of Birth Honolulu. One can assume, that if the Location of birth was not disputed by the State Department, then we could accept it when it comes to the qualifications for President.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23736254/

 

Anyone remember this story?

 

State Department employees snooped through the passport files of three presidential candidates — Sens. Barack Obama, Hillary Rodham Clinton and John McCain — and the department's inspector general is investigating.

 

So what does it take to get a Passport in the US?

 

http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html

 

STEP 2: Submit Evidence of U.S. Citizenship

 

When applying for a U.S. passport in person, evidence of U.S. citizenship must be submitted with Form DS-11. All documentation submitted as citizenship evidence will be returned to you. These documents will be delivered with your newly issued U.S. passport or in a separate mailing.

 

Primary Evidence of U.S. Citizenship (One of the following):

Previously issued, undamaged U.S. Passport

Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state*

Consular Report of Birth Abroad or Certification of Birth

Naturalization Certificate

Certificate of Citizenship

 

 

*A certified birth certificate has a registrar's raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar’s signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar's office, which must be within 1 year of your birth. Please note, some short (abstract) versions of birth certificates may not be acceptable for passport purposes.

 

NOTE: If you do not have primary evidence of U.S. citizenship or your U.S. birth certificate does not meet the requirements, please see Secondary Evidence of U.S. Citizenship.

 

 

Covercorner Notes: Some short abstract versions (The Certificate of Live Birth posted on www.factcheck.orgwould be an abstract version of a Birth Certificate) may not be acceptable. It is not noted which are and which are not. Personal stroy: I used my Certificate of Live Birth(paper version) to obtain my US Passport.

 

Conclusion: Mr. Obama has some sort of Birth Record on file with the US State Department in order to obtain his US Passport. Is the birth record on file the COLB, or the "Vault Copy"? That is unkown, but if he was to recieve a passport, then the US State Department has either accepted as fact what they were provided, or they are complicit in fraud. There is at least one official Federal government agency that has access to his(and Senator McCains, and Senator Clintons) birth records. Since the information the State Department has is confidential, we cannot directly confirm if the information matches what was provided by the released COLB, which states the Location of Birth Honolulu. One can assume, that if the Location of birth was not disputed by the State Department, then we could accept it when it comes to the qualifications for President.

The fact that the State Department did not object to Obama's application for a passport has nothing to do with his place of birth and status as a "natural born citizen." Naturalized citizens are also eligible for passports. There would have been no reason for the State Departmen to have challenged Obama on the application for a passport, unless they doubted that he was an American citizen.

 

IMO, if Obama was born in Hawaii, then his father's citizenship status at the time will be found to be irrlevant. However, if evidence surfaces indicating that Obama was born in Kenya, as his paternal grandmother has asserted, then there would be an issue as to whether his mother was able to pass natural born citizenship to him because of her age.

 

Here is an explanation by Eugene Volokh. The Volokh Conspiracy website debunked most claims that Obama is not eligible to serve as president during the campaign. Unless somebody produces signed affidavits from Obama's Kenyan relatives claiming to have been present at his birth, I do not believe any of the pending lawsuits will go anywhere.

 

However, I believe that a double standard is being applied to Obama by the liberal name callers who have ridiculed those who have demanded that Obama produce his actual birth certificate. These were some of the same folks who insisted on knowing where George W. Bush was at every moment during his time in the National Guard and alleged a conspiracy when a few of the decades old documents could not be produced fast enough to satisfy their curiosity. Surely, asking Obama to produce a birth certificate is more reasonable than the witch hunts against Bush in 2004.

:lol: Covercorner, give up. No one is reading this thread.

 

The heart of the case is that "natural-born citizen" is never specifically defined.

Some of us have read extensively on this subject and are not relying exclusively on the posts found here for information.

The fact that the State Department did not object to Obama's application for a passport has nothing to do with his place of birth and status as a "natural born citizen." Naturalized citizens are also eligible for passports. There would have been no reason for the State Departmen to have challenged Obama on the application for a passport, unless they doubted that he was an American citizen.

 

I apologize. I should not have implied that because they accepted the passport application that it guarenteed Natural Born Status.

 

IMO, if Obama was born in Hawaii, then his father's citizenship status at the time will be found to be irrlevant. However, if evidence surfaces indicating that Obama was born in Kenya, as his paternal grandmother has asserted, then there would be an issue as to whether his mother was able to pass natural born citizenship to him because of her age.

 

There are a couple of differnt regulations from Natrualization law that could be applicable if Obama was born in Kenya. I'll find them this afternoon and post for discussion sake.

 

Here is an explanation by Eugene Volokh. The Volokh Conspiracy website debunked most claims that Obama is not eligible to serve as president during the campaign. Unless somebody produces signed affidavits from Obama's Kenyan relatives claiming to have been present at his birth, I do not believe any of the pending lawsuits will go anywhere.

 

I admit, I've not seen that site before a couple of days ago. I wish that I had; seems pretty good. I don't think that anyone will come forward with any real proof that Mr. Obama was born in Kenya, even if he was born there.

 

However, I believe that a double standard is being applied to Obama by the liberal name callers who have ridiculed those who have demanded that Obama produce his actual birth certificate. These were some of the same folks who insisted on knowing where George W. Bush was at every moment during his time in the National Guard and alleged a conspiracy when a few of the decades old documents could not be produced fast enough to satisfy their curiosity. Surely, asking Obama to produce a birth certificate is more reasonable than the witch hunts against Bush in 2004.

 

I wish that everyone could look at and judge everything objectivley. I was so upset at how Bush was attacked by people that I agreed with. I didn't vote for Bush, and didn't agree with many policies, but I had to defend him because it was the right thing to do.

Actually no. Don't spread this around but I think he'll spend 16 years in the White House. If he can circumnavigated the constitution with his birth certificate I'm sure he has a plan to get around the two term limit.

 

Don't let anyone know. It is a secret! :sssh:

 

Of course he will, just as his grandparents knew 40 plus years ago that he would be running for president and so placed an ad in the local paper announcing his birth just in case someone came looking in the future!:sssh:

Of course he will, just as his grandparents knew 40 plus years ago that he would be running for president and so placed an ad in the local paper announcing his birth just in case someone came looking in the future!:sssh:

You are letting the cat out of the bag! :madman:

Good luck, most people ignored your posts before, I hope they read it this time. Unfortunately, people are not reading the bolded.

Unfortunately, some people are also ignoring the thread title and its first post.

I apologize. I should not have implied that because they accepted the passport application that it guarenteed Natural Born Status.

 

 

 

There are a couple of differnt regulations from Natrualization law that could be applicable if Obama was born in Kenya. I'll find them this afternoon and post for discussion sake.

 

 

 

I admit, I've not seen that site before a couple of days ago. I wish that I had; seems pretty good. I don't think that anyone will come forward with any real proof that Mr. Obama was born in Kenya, even if he was born there.

 

 

 

I wish that everyone could look at and judge everything objectivley. I was so upset at how Bush was attacked by people that I agreed with. I didn't vote for Bush, and didn't agree with many policies, but I had to defend him because it was the right thing to do.

:thumb: I agree and I appreciate your efforts to do so in this thread. As evidenced in this thread, merely raising the possibility that Obama is not a natural born citizen is cause for some to start distributing foil hats. Obama's refusal to simply make his original birth certificate available to the courts is just adding fuel to the fire, IMO. If he can stop the wild speculation, then he should do so.

:thumb: I agree and I appreciate your efforts to do so in this thread. As evidenced in this thread, merely raising the possibility that Obama is not a natural born citizen is cause for some to start distributing foil hats. Obama's refusal to simply make his original birth certificate available to the courts is just adding fuel to the fire, IMO. If he can stop the wild speculation, then he should do so.

 

 

Even if he does, it doesn't prove/disprove the lawsuit, as I understand Covercorner's posts.

Even if he does, it doesn't prove/disprove the lawsuit, as I understand Covercorner's posts.

It is my understanding that lawsuits have been filed in 17 states and at least one of those (the Berg case) has been filed with the Supreme Court. Of the rest, the most notable one is probably the one that Alan Keyes filed in California. Because Keyes was a candidate on that state's ballot, a court may be more likely to rule that he has legal standing to file the suit, a factor that has led to the dismissal of similar suits. If Obama requested that Hawaii produce a copy of his original birth certificate and it showed that he was born in a Hawaiian hospital, this issue would fade into obscurity, IMO.