I've been a frequent purveyor of some uber-conservative boards that have 15,000 post threads on this issue. I don't mind calling myself a liberal, I voted for Obama, and I think this whole birth certificate thing is a lot of hooey. I wouldn't mind the Donofiro case being heard, because it could clarify exactly what "Natrual-Born" citizen means. The pharse "Narutal Born" is not clearly defined by the Constitution. As a modestly described Constitutional Expert, and an AP US Governemnt, Politicts and Civics teacher. The arguments he brings up are interesting. Most everyone has always considered a birth to be on American soil to be considered "Natural" in terms of citizenship. Donofrio doesn't dispute Obamas birth in Hawaii. He says that since both his parents were not US citizens, Obama cannot be a Natural Born citizen regardless of where he was born. He also says that since McCain was not technically born in the Canal Zone in Panama, he is not an American citizen either.

 

Hoot states that the issue will not go away until Obama produces his origional birth certificate. Maybe that's correct, but I doubt it. I know there is the controversy over the released Certificate of Live Birth, and whether it was forged, or because it is not the "vault original" copy, that it doesn't count count the same. I think if his original was presented to whomever-Supreme Court- that there will still be some fringe that will not accept either the BC as an accurate document, or will claim that the Supreme Court has spit on the Constitution by allowing Obama to be President.

I've been a frequent purveyor of some uber-conservative boards that have 15,000 post threads on this issue. I don't mind calling myself a liberal, I voted for Obama, and I think this whole birth certificate thing is a lot of hooey. I wouldn't mind the Donofiro case being heard, because it could clarify exactly what "Natrual-Born" citizen means. The pharse "Narutal Born" is not clearly defined by the Constitution. As a modestly described Constitutional Expert, and an AP US Governemnt, Politicts and Civics teacher. The arguments he brings up are interesting. Most everyone has always considered a birth to be on American soil to be considered "Natural" in terms of citizenship. Donofrio doesn't dispute Obamas birth in Hawaii. He says that since both his parents were not US citizens, Obama cannot be a Natural Born citizen regardless of where he was born. He also says that since McCain was not technically born in the Canal Zone in Panama, he is not an American citizen either.

Hoot states that the issue will not go away until Obama produces his origional birth certificate. Maybe that's correct, but I doubt it. I know there is the controversy over the released Certificate of Live Birth, and whether it was forged, or because it is not the "vault original" copy, that it doesn't count count the same. I think if his original was presented to whomever-Supreme Court- that there will still be some fringe that will not accept either the BC as an accurate document, or will claim that the Supreme Court has spit on the Constitution by allowing Obama to be President.

 

Thanks for the info:thumb:

 

Wow, I would be interested to see how the ruling goes.

This issue will not go away until Obama produces his original birth certificate and proves that he is eligible to serve as president. On Dec. 6, a conference of the full US Supreme Court will be held to decide whether to hear a case filed by Leo C. Donofrio of New Jersey that challenges the eliigibility of Obama, McCain, and Roger Calero to appear on the electoral college's slate of candidates. If four of the justices vote in favor to hear Donofri's case, then oral arguments will be scheduled and heard by the full court.

 

Other cases, including Alan Keyes' California suit are still pending in state courts.

 

Why has Obama refused to prove his eligibility and hired three different legal firms to block access to his original birth certificate? This is a serious question that deserves a serious answer.

 

I tend to agree with you on this.

 

Its interesting, to say the least, why this is still an issue when it could be resolved in a very short time. Release the Birth Certificate...prove you were born in America and be done with it.

 

Whether he's trying to hide something or not, his actions certainly would suggest that he is and that makes it far more curious from my standpoint. And, to be honest, I knew next to nothing about this until 2 or 3 weeks ago.

I tend to agree with you on this.

 

Its interesting, to say the least, why this is still an issue when it could be resolved in a very short time. Release the Birth Certificate...prove you were born in America and be done with it.

 

Whether he's trying to hide something or not, his actions certainly would suggest that he is and that makes it far more curious from my standpoint. And, to be honest, I knew next to nothing about this until 2 or 3 weeks ago.

 

Here is part of the issue with the lawsuits.

 

Through his campaign website set up to debunk rumors of Obama being a Muslim, or the Anti-Crist, the issue of him not being natural born was answered by his site posting an image of his Certificate of Live Birth(called by some a short form birth certificate) the scanned image was also avaliable on http://www.factcheck.org. There were enough people that screamed that because you couldn't see the folds in the paper(to place it in the envelope) or the rasied seal, that it must have been a forgery, that http://www.factcheck.org took more pictures of the actual document with permisssion from Obama. These pictures showed the folds and the raised seal.

 

I've actually been reading and researching this issue for about 6 months, and from what I've found, the Nutso's have just gone on to a new reason why Obama is not a Natrual Born Citizen once thier first reason is shown to be unreliable.

 

Now, there are some that do not think that the Certificate of Live Birth, which is basically an abstract containing the most pertinant information from the original certificate, is valid in this case. I disagree with them. My own personal Certificate of Live Birth from the state of KY is valid in all court proceedings (Obamas COLB says the same thing) I dont get the obsession over the original birth certificate, when the COLB legally is equivilant. I have a credit card COLB, in addtion to a paper COLB. All information is the same and is valid in court.

 

As far as fighting this in court- none of these cases have ever been argued in court, so the Obama campaign has not fought it in court yet. I have seen no source that says he has hired any number of law firms and spent $800,000-$1.5 million so far.

I created a new post to continue my thoughts so it wouldn't appear as a rant against

5wide.

 

The ONLY case set forth that IMO should have any look is the Donofrio case. I think that his assertions are incorrect, and that he's reading some accurate parts of Naturalization incorrecly, but at least he is raising more valid questions that the other suits.

 

For this post, I will focus on McCain. A former POW, and Patriot. I didn't vote for him,(would have in 2000), and would defend him as President-elect with these issues. McCain was born in Panama, where his father was stationed in the Navy in the US Controlled Panama Canal Zone. There is a general thought that US Military bases, or Embassies count as Soverign US Territory, and children born there would be US Natural Born Citizens. However, it is not completely clear that McCain was born on the base at the Military Hospitial. There is a birth Certificate that was obtained in the case against McCain earlier this year that listed his birth in the town of Colon Panama, which is not in the Canal Zone, and not US soil. According to this, many may not consider McCain to be a Natural Born Citizen.

 

The fact remains that the Constitution does not explicitly define what a "Natural Born Citizen" is.

 

In 1790, Congress passed an Act dealing with Immigration and Naturality. The important part of that text is: "...the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens".

 

There have been revisions and other passages that some would say puts this statement in dispute, but according to http://www.factcheck.org, says that the language is honored under the current Immigration and Nationality Act. The Senate also passed a non-binding Resolution expressing the Natural Born Status of McCain. Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama were co-sponsors I belive.

 

We must also remember that Barry Goldwater who ran for President in 1964, was born to two American Parents in Arizona before it became a state, and Mitt Romneys father George, who ran in 1968, was born to two US parents in Mexico. There was no issue brought up with them, although they did not run in the internet age. They also didn't win. That may have made a difference.

 

My Verdict on McCain- Natural Born Citizen.

^No offense taken.

 

I'm not a right wing fanatic that thinks Obama isn't "legal" for the job of President. It would surprise me more to find out that he isn't to be honest. But, it did make me curious to know that all he had to do was supply the original copy to the Supreme Court and end the speculation.

 

At least that was my understanding of what I'd read and heard. As you say though, it looks like there's more to it than that.

 

Still...it seems like he would at least do that and put that particular argument to bed completely.

^No offense taken.

 

I'm not a right wing fanatic that thinks Obama isn't "legal" for the job of President. It would surprise me more to find out that he isn't to be honest. But, it did make me curious to know that all he had to do was supply the original copy to the Supreme Court and end the speculation.

 

At least that was my understanding of what I'd read and heard. As you say though, it looks like there's more to it than that.

 

Still...it seems like he would at least do that and put that particular argument to bed completely.

As far as whom he is supposed to present a birth certificate to...I can't say for sure.

 

 

I think that the Federal Election Commission probably saw it, and they would be the one entity that I would say should see it. We know he has an American Passport(there was the story of the security breach over the summer where unauthorized people saw his, Clintons, Condi Rice, and a couple of others passports and files.) so I would assume the State Department has enough proof and probably has a certified copy, IMO.

 

Also, the nature of States rights in our country gives the power of overseeing elections to the State Governments, hence the suit by Donofrio agianst the Sec. of State of New Jersey for allowing the candidates on the ballot. It is essentially up to the Secretaries of State to verify the qualifications of all candidates, and I would assume that the FEC approved the major candidates for the states.

 

From my understanding, there is no true process as to how to verify Presidential candidates.

From my understanding of todays events:

 

Dec. 5th 2008, the US Supreme Court held Conference to determine cases in which they would grant cert. The Donofrio case challenging the Natrual Born Status of Obama and McCain was to be distributed to Conference today. Generally, if they do grant cert, the parties are notified that day. Any other action(cert denied, remading back to lower court) would not be revealled until Monday.

 

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/orders-12-5-08.pdf

 

According to this link, only two cases heard today are granted cert. Neither of them deals with an Obama Birth Certificate. Or Natural Born Citizen status. This case had, or others like them probably have little chance of being heard anyway, and those odds are continuing to shrink.

As far as whom he is supposed to present a birth certificate to...I can't say for sure.

 

 

I think that the Federal Election Commission probably saw it, and they would be the one entity that I would say should see it. We know he has an American Passport(there was the story of the security breach over the summer where unauthorized people saw his, Clintons, Condi Rice, and a couple of others passports and files.) so I would assume the State Department has enough proof and probably has a certified copy, IMO.

 

Also, the nature of States rights in our country gives the power of overseeing elections to the State Governments, hence the suit by Donofrio agianst the Sec. of State of New Jersey for allowing the candidates on the ballot. It is essentially up to the Secretaries of State to verify the qualifications of all candidates, and I would assume that the FEC approved the major candidates for the states.

 

From my understanding, there is no true process as to how to verify Presidential candidates.

 

That seems interesting in itself.

From my understanding of todays events:

 

Dec. 5th 2008, the US Supreme Court held Conference to determine cases in which they would grant cert. The Donofrio case challenging the Natrual Born Status of Obama and McCain was to be distributed to Conference today. Generally, if they do grant cert, the parties are notified that day. Any other action(cert denied, remading back to lower court) would not be revealled until Monday.

 

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/orders-12-5-08.pdf

 

According to this link, only two cases heard today are granted cert. Neither of them deals with an Obama Birth Certificate. Or Natural Born Citizen status. This case had, or others like them probably have little chance of being heard anyway, and those odds are continuing to shrink.

 

 

I must add something to clarify what I posted earlier this afternoon.

 

Donofio petitioned to stay(delay) the meeting of the Electoral College. Just because the case was not granted cert today, it is not dead yet.

Why would he NOT want to produce his Birth Cirt? I would think that if he had nothing to hide, he would let everyone see it. I have not followed this at all, so, I am real fuzzy on the subject. I was just reading what you all have posted and find it interresting. I am a firm believer that if you have nothing to hide then show all...Is Obama hiding something? When running for President, do you have to show the cirt? Why was he allowed to become President if he did not show it? What happens if it is found that he is not a natural born citizen? Does McCain get it...does Bush stay in....do we have to go through this whole campaign mess again?

Why would he NOT want to produce his Birth Cirt? I would think that if he had nothing to hide, he would let everyone see it. I have not followed this at all, so, I am real fuzzy on the subject. I was just reading what you all have posted and find it interresting. I am a firm believer that if you have nothing to hide then show all...Is Obama hiding something? When running for President, do you have to show the cirt? Why was he allowed to become President if he did not show it? What happens if it is found that he is not a natural born citizen? Does McCain get it...does Bush stay in....do we have to go through this whole campaign mess again?

 

 

The overlooked part of this is that documentation HAS been produced by Obama's campaign.

The overlooked part of this is that documentation HAS been produced by Obama's campaign.

 

 

Really? Then what the heck is all the fuss about?

 

Thank you for clearing that up! The whole thing is a mute point then (that is, if I am understanding it correctly.).

Really? Then what the heck is all the fuss about?

 

Thank you for clearing that up! The whole thing is a mute point then (that is, if I am understanding it correctly.).

 

As covercorner said, the plaintiff is questioning Obama's (and McCain's) status as a natural-born citizen, which is difficult because it is never clearly defined in the Constitution

Really? Then what the heck is all the fuss about?

 

Thank you for clearing that up! The whole thing is a mute point then (that is, if I am understanding it correctly.).

 

 

Kinda how I've felt from the beginning. :lol: