I'm pro-life too; but just curious about something. Where in the Bible does it specifically say that life begins at conception? Also, where does it specifically mention abortion? I'm not saying it doesn't; just looking for specific scripture on the subject. And again, I'm not looking for scripture about murder that one then ties to the abortion issue.

 

"I formed you in your mother's womb"

 

"I knew you before . . . " is the scripture that is often used.

 

However, in the old testament there are several examples of LIFE starting when God breathed breath into human beings, not while they were being formed.

 

And under old testament law if a pregnant woman was harmed and she "lost' the baby there was a minor penalty for the perpetrator of the harm.

 

If the mother was harmed, there is a much stiffer penalty - obviously delineating between the value of the two.

So the biblical definition doesn't count for you? It is apparent that you must not believe that scripture is the inerrant Word of God. If you don't, then that is why we will never agree on this and other points of contention such as homosexuality, etc. and it is pointless to continue to debate these issues when you don't hold the Word of God up as the final authority. The bible says life begins at conception---period. However, the Lord will have to open your eyes to this truth. No one else can do it.

 

It is not a matter of whether or noth the biblical definition works for me. We cannot outlaw things based solely on scripture. Again, I ask you when will you stop wearing clothes made of two threads (cloths). It is against the scripture - why have we not outlawed it? Do you not take the scripture seriously and inerrantly. If you are a female, why are you on here trying to intruct me in the ways of God. The new testament will tell you that you can't do that. Do you not take the scripture seriously or inerrantly. I, however, appreciate your contribution to my growth, but I obviously am a heretic.

 

I take the scripture very seriously, but I also understand that it must be taken contextually as well.

Most pills prevent a fertilized egg (conception) from attaching to the uterine wall. A zygote/fetus is then flushed out of the system.

 

The water has now gotten murky.

 

What does it mean to you that I disagree? What rights do I have given my disagreement? Is my opinion just disgarded in your ideal world??

The water has indeed gotten murky. I agree that "the pill" is similar to abortion; I think you will find the Catholic Church is just as adamant about that. However, ask the three questions you just asked me of yourself in my defense. As you can see, it cuts both ways.

Just as yours is an opinion.

 

That is the whole crux of the debate. Until someone SCIENTIFICALLY defines when life begins it is a matter of opinion.

 

Considering how even in the scientific world, a microbe is considered 'life', how can we say that a baby is not 'life' until after it is born?

 

I have seen the ultrasound pictures and video of my grandson (who is due to be born in January) when he was 2 months. There is absolutely no doubt that he is alive.

 

Abortion is the ending of a human life and all human life is sacred.

 

But if President Elect Obama follows through on his promise to Planned Parenthood, all abortions at any time in the pregnancy will be legal.

It is not a matter of whether or noth the biblical definition works for me. We cannot outlaw things based solely on scripture. Again, I ask you when will you stop wearing clothes made of two threads (cloths). It is against the scripture - why have we not outlawed it? Do you not take the scripture seriously and inerrantly. If you are a female, why are you on here trying to intruct me in the ways of God. The new testament will tell you that you can't do that. Do you not take the scripture seriously or inerrantly. I, however, appreciate your contribution to my growth, but I obviously am a heretic.

 

I take the scripture very seriously, but I also understand that it must be taken contextually as well.

 

 

So murder falls in the same category as wearing cloths made of two threads? Amazing.

So murder falls in the same category as wearing cloths made of two threads? Amazing.

 

MT, he never said it falls in the same category. He is saying that you can't call the bible inerrant if you are picking and choosing with parts to follow.

Considering how even in the scientific world, a microbe is considered 'life', how can we say that a baby is not 'life' until after it is born?

 

I have seen the ultrasound pictures and video of my grandson (who is due to be born in January) when he was 2 months. There is absolutely no doubt that he is alive.

 

Abortion is the ending of a human life and all human life is sacred.

 

But if President Elect Obama follows through on his promise to Planned Parenthood, all abortions at any time in the pregnancy will be legal.

 

But a microbe stays a microbe. It doesn't, in a single generation, become anything more.

Just as yours is an opinion.

 

That is the whole crux of the debate. Until someone SCIENTIFICALLY defines when life begins it is a matter of opinion.

 

They've defined when life begins, viability outside of the womb is the crux of the argument.

The water has indeed gotten murky. I agree that "the pill" is similar to abortion; I think you will find the Catholic Church is just as adamant about that. However, ask the three questions you just asked me of yourself in my defense. As you can see, it cuts both ways.

 

I respect your opinion and therefore would never try to force you or one of your loved ones to have an abortion - you on the other hand, it appears, would like to force me not to one. Although the pregnancy would be a medical miracle itself.

I respect your opinion and therefore would never try to force you or one of your loved ones to have an abortion - you on the other hand, it appears, would like to force me not to one. Although the pregnancy would be a medical miracle itself.

Sorry, Ace, I just don't believe in murder. Especially the kind aimed at the ones that can't even defend themselves. I too respect your opinion. The two of us are just worlds apart on this issue.

God said in Jeremiah before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee.

Abortion is murder.

"I formed you in your mother's womb"

 

"I knew you before . . . " is the scripture that is often used.

 

However, in the old testament there are several examples of LIFE starting when God breathed breath into human beings, not while they were being formed.

 

And under old testament law if a pregnant woman was harmed and she "lost' the baby there was a minor penalty for the perpetrator of the harm.

 

If the mother was harmed, there is a much stiffer penalty - obviously delineating between the value of the two.

 

 

Much of the Bible also did not put women on the same level as men, so does that devalue them in God's eyes?

But a microbe stays a microbe. It doesn't, in a single generation, become anything more.

 

But it is still life. So you are saying if it doesn't evolve into something else it isn't life?

 

Let me ask you this, ... will you support Obama if he signs the Freedom Of Choice Act which will make abortion legal at any stage of the pregnancy?

But it is still life. So you are saying if it doesn't evolve into something else it isn't life?

 

Let me ask you this, ... will you support Obama if he signs the Freedom Of Choice Act which will make abortion legal at any stage of the pregnancy?

 

No, I'm saying that it's not the size of the object that determines when life exists. A fertilized egg goes through many stages of development before it becomes a baby is born. Equating a microbe with a fertilized egg is over-simplifying things.

 

As to your second question, I thought that the Freedom of Choice Act applied only to pre-viable fetuses?

No, I'm saying that it's not the size of the object that determines when life exists. A fertilized egg goes through many stages of development before it becomes a baby is born. Equating a microbe with a fertilized egg is over-simplifying things.

 

As to your second question, I thought that the Freedom of Choice Act applied only to pre-viable fetuses?

 

If you believe that God has created all humans then how can we believe we have the right to end what he created? No matter how small. As far as that goes, we evolve throughout out entire lives, ... growing, changing and maturing. Any point where we determine that it isn't a human is arbitrary.

 

IAs to your 2nd answer, yes, but it gives the attending physician the authority to determine if the baby is pre-viable. The same physician who is being paid to conduct the abortion. Below is a direct quote from the bill.

 

VIABILITY- The term `viability' means that stage of pregnancy when, in the best medical judgment of the attending physician based on the particular medical facts of the case before the physician, there is a reasonable likelihood of the sustained survival of the fetus outside of the woman.

 

The Freedom of Choice Act (which still hasn't been passed by congress as Bush would veto it and they didn't have the votes to override the veto), does a few things.

 

1. Overrides all state abortion regulations

2. Overturn the partial birth abortion ban

3. Eliminates parental consent

4. It would force the repeal of the Hyde Amendment, which restricts the use of Federal funding for abortions.

5. It would challenge the right of religiously-based hospitals or clinics to refuse to perform abortions. So a Catholic based hospital would have to perform abortions even though the church stands in firm opposition to it.

 

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., the Democratic President-Elect, became a co-sponsor of the 2007 Senate version of the bill (S. 1173). Responding to a question regarding how he would preserve reproductive rights in a speech given to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund on July 17, 2007, he declared "The first thing I'd do, as president, is sign the Freedom of Choice Act. That's the first thing that I'd do."

Edited November 13, 200817 yr by MountainThunder