I would donate money to organizations whose purpose is to fight illegal, underground, and homemade abortions, through prosecution and education. I would support candidates who would try to educate the masses on how sex leads to children.

 

Do you two want me to say? That, since we haven't clearly defined a plan for how to fight abortion after it becomes illegal, I should give up the fight?

 

I'm going to be blunt here- I understand what you are hinting at- those of us who have become obsessed with abortion are nothing more than pawns of the Religious Right who really don't want abortion to be illegal so that they can continue to have our lockstep value votes. It's all been said and inferred before. Some of us do realize that there would be illegal abortion still. Yes, there are some of us who would combat infant murder after it became illegal.

 

 

Actually, that's not at all what I wanted you to say...it couldn't be further from the truth.

 

In a nutshell, here's my belief:

 

I can vote for candidates that I feel would appoint judges to the Supreme Court that would over turn RvW. However, that's kind of a crapshoot, IMO. Obviously many other steps would have to be taken before the chance even came about.

 

I feel strongly that the fight to end abortion is a daily battle, now, after this election, forever. And it's a personal fight. If you (collectively, not specifically) feel abortion is the overriding determination of your vote, I would expect that you (again collectively) are already actively involved in the fight. You volunteer at a clinic to counsel at-risk parents. You counsel in your community on ways to avoid pregnancy. You counsel youth on the responsibilities of their actions. You steer at-risk parents toward other resources. You actively work to make sure other options are promoted through literature, lectures, advertisement, etc.

 

After the hypothetical vote to overturn RvW, the above would continue.

 

I'm always skeptical when someone says they base their vote on abortion. I don't see that many people leading the fight to take the steps and provide the support of pro-life agencies.

 

Prayer and votes are great. But it takes personal committment of time and resources to make a real difference in the longterm.

To a degree. Is that all the responsibility you feel necessary?

 

Don't really know where you going with this. I would do all that was necessary to protect the rights of the unborn. I would support conservative organizations who work with unwed mothers to provide them an option to abortion. Whatever it takes, volunteer, provide resources, help, etc.

Don't really know where you going with this. I would do all that was necessary to protect the rights of the unborn. I would support conservative organizations who work with unwed mothers to provide them an option to abortion. Whatever it takes.

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Actually, that's not at all what I wanted you to say...it couldn't be further from the truth.

 

In a nutshell, here's my belief:

 

I can vote for candidates that I feel would appoint judges to the Supreme Court that would over turn RvW. However, that's kind of a crapshoot, IMO. Obviously many other steps would have to be taken before the chance even came about.

 

I feel strongly that the fight to end abortion is a daily battle, now, after this election, forever. And it's a personal fight. If you (collectively, not specifically) feel abortion is the overriding determination of your vote, I would expect that you (again collectively) are already actively involved in the fight. You volunteer at a clinic to counsel at-risk parents. You counsel in your community on ways to avoid pregnancy. You counsel youth on the responsibilities of their actions. You steer at-risk parents toward other resources. You actively work to make sure other options are promoted through literature, lectures, advertisement, etc.

 

After the hypothetical vote to overturn RvW, the above would continue.

 

I'm always skeptical when someone says they base their vote on abortion. I don't see that many people leading the fight to take the steps and provide the support of pro-life agencies.

 

Prayer and votes are great. But it takes personal committment of time and resources to make a real difference in the longterm.

All strong points. I'm not sure how it defends your logic of still voting for candidates that support abortion, but still I get what you are saying.

 

Yes, I should do more. Right now, all I do is be a living example that it is possible. Everyone who asks me and debates me (which is more than you'd imagine) I try to tell them the truth. Unfortunately, I don't think there is much counsel I could give. I can't really imagine a 20-year-old pregnant girl taking advice from a 19-year-old guy with no money, no kids, and nothing relevant to add to her dilemma.

 

I guess I am a hypocrite, and I am sorry for misinterpreting your intention. The things that you are say are very prudent and wise, and hopefully should make people realize that making abortion illegal will not solve all problems.

 

However, I still don't think what you are saying is a defense of voting for pro-Abortion candidates.

All strong points. I'm not sure how it defends your logic of still voting for candidates that support abortion, but still I get what you are saying.

 

Yes, I should do more. Right now, all I do is be a living example that it is possible. Everyone who asks me and debates me (which is more than you'd imagine) I try to tell them the truth. Unfortunately, I don't think there is much counsel I could give. I can't really imagine a 20-year-old pregnant girl taking advice from a 19-year-old guy with no money, no kids, and nothing relevant to add to her dilemma.

 

I guess I am a hypocrite, and I am sorry for misinterpreting your intention. The things that you are say are very prudent and wise, and hopefully should make people realize that making abortion illegal will not solve all problems.

 

However, I still don't think what you are saying is a defense of voting for pro-Abortion candidates.

 

All I'm saying is that voting for candidates that are against abortion, while worthy in and of itself, will not end abortion, even if RvW is overturned. I understand that making it illegal is a big step, but I don't think many people understand that it's not the only step. Criminalizing something does not end the act.

 

When deciding my vote, I tend to think of the things I cannot impact, and choose my candidate based on how I feel he can put forth policies that I feel are prudent in those areas. I can't impact foreign policy, for instance. I can't end the war in Iraq. I can't fix the economic mess. But, I can impact the abortion issue..me, myself...now, immediately...and in the future-regardless of whether abortion is illegal or legal.

I'm saying I doubt he knew there was a law on the books already, then claimed later that's why he voted that way.

Don't fall for the "there was a law on the books" excuse that Obama has recently decided to use. If there was a law on the books, one might ask for examples of the hospitals being charged under that law for denying medical treatment to newborns dying in agony. Obama spent years claiming that the bill that he opposed did not contain the same language that the federal version contained. His excuse changed only when it came to light that he voted against a version that did contain that very language.

Don't fall for the "there was a law on the books" excuse that Obama has recently decided to use. If there was a law on the books, one might ask for examples of the hospitals being charged under that law for denying medical treatment to newborns dying in agony. Obama spent years claiming that the bill that he opposed did not contain the same language that the federal version contained. His excuse changed only when it came to light that he voted against a version that did contain that very language.

 

He did not RECENTLY decide to use that "excuse". That is one of the reasons he outlined in "Audacity of Hope."

 

There are many illegal things that happen in the US in which no prosecution occurs.

 

So, this bill doesn't exist? http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/documents/072005100K6.htm

Don't fall for the "there was a law on the books" excuse that Obama has recently decided to use. If there was a law on the books, one might ask for examples of the hospitals being charged under that law for denying medical treatment to newborns dying in agony. Obama spent years claiming that the bill that he opposed did not contain the same language that the federal version contained. His excuse changed only when it came to light that he voted against a version that did contain that very language.

I don't fall for anything from Obama, trust me.

I would donate money to organizations whose purpose is to fight illegal, underground, and homemade abortions, through prosecution and education. I would support candidates who would try to educate the masses on how sex leads to children.

 

Do you two want me to say? That, since we haven't clearly defined a plan for how to fight abortion after it becomes illegal, I should give up the fight?

 

I'm going to be blunt here- I understand what you are hinting at- those of us who have become obsessed with abortion are nothing more than pawns of the Religious Right who really don't want abortion to be illegal so that they can continue to have our lockstep value votes. It's all been said and inferred before. Some of us do realize that there would be illegal abortion still. Yes, there are some of us who would combat infant murder after it became illegal.

 

I actually asked other questions that didn't get answered, but I appreciate your response to RM's.

 

I would add that it's not that I believe that you (collectively) become a pawn of the religious right. I think that there are too many that focus ONLY on abortion, as opposed to other "sins to vote against." Though my religious upbringing doesn't pass IAMFORTHEHOUND's standards (thus making me unworthy, I guess), I was taught that any sin that I had committed that I had not repented for would keep me from seeing God's face, placing me in Hell for eternity. A sin is a sin.

 

I am not pro-abortion. I don't know anyone that is. I can't be confident that there are not sometimes valid reasons for an abortion. I abhor the decisions made by those that use it as a means of birth control. I am not sure when "life" begins. If it is at conception, why do only Catholic teachings speak out against oral contraceptives, which, in part, work by not allowing a fertilized egg to attach to the uterine lining? I would like to say that my stance on this is easy, as it is for some of you, but it isn't. I find hypocrisy in those that say all life has a right to exist, then talk about exceptions for abortion, whether it be for rape, incest or danger to the mother. Are those offspring unworthy? Yet, I can certainly at least begin to understand the decision that a woman that has been raped has to make, upon discovery of a pregnancy. Should I make that decision for her? I don't think so.

 

Therefore, I remain pro-choice. I have had a few instances where I have been able to counsel young women about unwanted pregnancy. Fortunately, all of them decided to have their child and are making fine mothers. Some were teen girls that I was able to offer emotional support to during their pregnancy, too. This is the extent of my contribution/assistance, I guess, to reducing the number of abortions.

 

I think that many, many people that are pro-choice (we are NOT pro-abortion) are in a similar dilemma.

Though my religious upbringing doesn't pass IAMFORTHEHOUND's standards (thus making me unworthy, I guess),

TB&G I never said that your religious upbringing didn't meet my standards. In fact, my standards, or any other persons standards don't really matter. It is God's Word that is the standard and you and you alone will have to decide if it meets His standard. (Refer to post #134.) You are right sin is sin but all sin has not been made legal as abortion has. I simply am convicted that life begins at conception and that lives of those who cannot speak for themselves (the unborn) should be protected. Whatever it takes. I cannot vote for pro-abortion candidates for the reasons I have previously set forth. Furthermore, I am still at a loss, even after all the responses in this thread, as to how a Christian can vote for these candidates. But as I said before, that is between you and the Heavenly Father. God Bless you.

Edited October 22, 200817 yr by IM4THEHOUNDS

Though my religious upbringing doesn't pass IAMFORTHEHOUND's standards (thus making me unworthy, I guess),

TB&G I never said that your religious upbringing didn't meet my standards. In fact, my standards, or any other persons standards don't really matter. It is God's Word that is the standard and you and you alone will have to decide if it meets His standard. (Refer to post #134.) You are right sin is sin but all sin has not been made legal as abortion has. I simply am convicted that life begins at conception and that lives of those who cannot speak for themselves (the unborn) should be protected. Whatever it takes. I cannot vote for pro-abortion candidates for the reasons I have previously set forth. Furthermore, I am still at a loss, even after all the responses in this thread, as to how a Christian can vote for these candidates. But as I said before, that is between you and the Heavenly Father. God Bless you.

 

Your judgement by innuendo is still judgement. It may be between me and God, but not so for Obama, as you declared

You need to read the Word of God and Obama needs to go back to his Rev J.Wright and stop claiming to be a Christian.

Somehow, you claim to know what is in his heart and his relationship with God. I guess your quote of

Well, all I can say to that is you were in the wrong one because Jesus Christ said that we should judge.

as to me being in the wrong Sunday school class pales in comparision.

 

While we are asking and answering questions, you never answered this one for me: Isn't adultery anti-biblical? Wouldn't that rule McCain out, with those stipulations?

 

Now, I could make grand declarations, saying It is God's Word that is the standard and you and you alone will have to decide if it meets His standard or how a Christian can vote for someone that has committed adultery, and then say all of this with a "God Bless You," while still being judgemental, but I won't.

 

You see, this is not an issue for me with McCain. I won't claim to know whether or not he is truly Christian or that he can't be Christian enough for me to know if he should be forgiven.

 

I can respect those that choose to be one issue voters, whether the issue be abortion or the war in Iraq. However, I do not offer the same for people that try to demonize those that do not disagree with them or, for God's sake, question their Christianity because of it.

I actually asked other questions that didn't get answered, but I appreciate your response to RM's.

 

I would add that it's not that I believe that you (collectively) become a pawn of the religious right. I think that there are too many that focus ONLY on abortion, as opposed to other "sins to vote against." Though my religious upbringing doesn't pass IAMFORTHEHOUND's standards (thus making me unworthy, I guess), I was taught that any sin that I had committed that I had not repented for would keep me from seeing God's face, placing me in Hell for eternity. A sin is a sin.

Agreed. I don't support any sins politically (that I know of)

I am not pro-abortion. I don't know anyone that is. I can't be confident that there are not sometimes valid reasons for an abortion. I abhor the decisions made by those that use it as a means of birth control. I am not sure when "life" begins.

First of all, you are pro-abortion rights. For someone who is not sure of when life begins, I find it disturbing that you decide to err on the side that allows what could be murder. I'd rather be cautious.

If it is at conception, why do only Catholic teachings speak out against oral contraceptives, which, in part, work by not allowing a fertilized egg to attach to the uterine lining?

That simply isn't true. The Catholic Church is against all forms of artificial birth control.

I would like to say that my stance on this is easy, as it is for some of you, but it isn't. I find hypocrisy in those that say all life has a right to exist, then talk about exceptions for abortion, whether it be for rape, incest or danger to the mother. Are those offspring unworthy? Yet, I can certainly at least begin to understand the decision that a woman that has been raped has to make, upon discovery of a pregnancy. Should I make that decision for her? I don't think so.

Abortion is never an acceptable option. There are times when the baby may be prematurely taken from the womb because the life of the mother is in danger, but there must be every intent made to save the life of the baby. Since there is no intent to prevent the fetus from living, I do not classify that as abortion.

Therefore, I remain pro-choice. I have had a few instances where I have been able to counsel young women about unwanted pregnancy. Fortunately, all of them decided to have their child and are making fine mothers. Some were teen girls that I was able to offer emotional support to during their pregnancy, too. This is the extent of my contribution/assistance, I guess, to reducing the number of abortions.

 

I think that many, many people that are pro-choice (we are NOT pro-abortion) are in a similar dilemma.

What that means is that good advice can often be more effective then just simply a vote (RM will be happy I said this). I say do both. I wish I did more.

I actually asked other questions that didn't get answered, but I appreciate your response to RM's.

 

I would add that it's not that I believe that you (collectively) become a pawn of the religious right. I think that there are too many that focus ONLY on abortion, as opposed to other "sins to vote against." Though my religious upbringing doesn't pass IAMFORTHEHOUND's standards (thus making me unworthy, I guess), I was taught that any sin that I had committed that I had not repented for would keep me from seeing God's face, placing me in Hell for eternity. A sin is a sin.

 

I am not pro-abortion. I don't know anyone that is. I can't be confident that there are not sometimes valid reasons for an abortion. I abhor the decisions made by those that use it as a means of birth control. I am not sure when "life" begins. If it is at conception, why do only Catholic teachings speak out against oral contraceptives, which, in part, work by not allowing a fertilized egg to attach to the uterine lining? I would like to say that my stance on this is easy, as it is for some of you, but it isn't. I find hypocrisy in those that say all life has a right to exist, then talk about exceptions for abortion, whether it be for rape, incest or danger to the mother. Are those offspring unworthy? Yet, I can certainly at least begin to understand the decision that a woman that has been raped has to make, upon discovery of a pregnancy. Should I make that decision for her? I don't think so.

 

Therefore, I remain pro-choice. I have had a few instances where I have been able to counsel young women about unwanted pregnancy. Fortunately, all of them decided to have their child and are making fine mothers. Some were teen girls that I was able to offer emotional support to during their pregnancy, too. This is the extent of my contribution/assistance, I guess, to reducing the number of abortions.

 

I think that many, many people that are pro-choice (we are NOT pro-abortion) are in a similar dilemma.[/QUOTE]

 

 

I don't think I could have said it better.. :thumb:

That simply isn't true. The Catholic Church is against all forms of artificial birth control.

 

I may have worded that part badly. What I meant was why is the Catholic Church the ONLY church to denounce the use of oral contraceptives (along with all artificial birth control) when such a method is used, in part, to keep a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall? If churches believe that conception occurs at fertilization, then, by logic, oral contraceptives are murder.

 

You are correct in that not knowing when conception begins making erring on the side of what could be murder a very dangerous thing. This is why my personal decison would NEVER be to have an abortion.

 

With that being said, I can't say that I will never change my opinion on the issue of abortion.

Your judgement by innuendo is still judgement. It may be between me and God, but not so for Obama, as you declared Somehow, you claim to know what is in his heart and his relationship with God. I guess your quote of as to me being in the wrong Sunday school class pales in comparision.

 

While we are asking and answering questions, you never answered this one for me: Isn't adultery anti-biblical? Wouldn't that rule McCain out, with those stipulations?

 

Now, I could make grand declarations, saying It is God's Word that is the standard and you and you alone will have to decide if it meets His standard or how a Christian can vote for someone that has committed adultery, and then say all of this with a "God Bless You," while still being judgemental, but I won't.

 

You see, this is not an issue for me with McCain. I won't claim to know whether or not he is truly Christian or that he can't be Christian enough for me to know if he should be forgiven.

 

I can respect those that choose to be one issue voters, whether the issue be abortion or the war in Iraq. However, I do not offer the same for people that try to demonize those that do not disagree with them or, for God's sake, question their Christianity because of it.

 

Yes, adultery is sin and it causes a lot of problems, but adultery can be forgiven just like any other sin. If McCain was a womanizer like Bill Clinton and continued in adulterous affairs then I would say, yes that would rule him out.

 

That is altogether different than being a member of a church for 20 years that preached hate and racism like J.Wright did in his church of which Obama was a member.(see post #102) Thats also different than continuing to support the abortion movement. Yes, I believe strongly that abortion is wrong, but I also believe anyone who has had an abortion can be forgiven, just like anyone who has commited adultery can be forgiven. And yet, if someone never sees the wrong in their sin then, they will never repent of it and therefore it is my conclusion that those who support abortion have never seen the wrong in it.