While I see your point, I think there is some validity to Aces. Using your example of a city, if the Mayor was spewing racist comments over 20 years and the populace was re-electing him year in and year out, I think it would be fair to conclude that a majority of the populace was at least "OK" with those comments. Applying that to Trinity, as I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong) Rev. Wright's diatribes against the Caucasion race in America had been going on for quite some time. The fact that the members had not left the church or had him removed as the leader of the church has to likewise indicate some approval of or acquiescense to his message by a large segment of the church membership, does it not?

 

I think that's a good conclusion.

 

The issue though is are they the ones doing the ministry with the dollars? See I have a vocal group in my church that talk a lot and pontificate. Their like minded friends would "amen" what's being said. However when the real ministry and work for that ministry takes place, the talkers and "ameners" are nowhere to be seen. The group Nixon used to call "the silent majority" are in the trenches working ministry and serving people. The same would be true here IMHO.

It's strange how the racism bar has changed now that an African-American is running for president. I remember a time when it was a scandal to belong to a country club that had no minority or female members. It was simply assumed by liberals that anybody who belonged to such an organization supported the club's racist attitudes.

 

Now, in the case of Trinity, people sitting in the pews for decades as pastors delivered racially charged sermons, either cheering wildly or sitting silently (I heard no groans or jeers, did you?), we are supposed to assume that most of those members are just guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

I am sorry, I just don't buy it. There is no excuse to remain a member in an organization that actively promotes a racist agenda and tolerates the kind of sermons delivered by Rev. Wright and Father Pfleger.

 

 

I'm sorry, I do.

As you all know, all these Rev. Wright things and such really don't affect my ideas about Obama (although I will admit that his quote on white mans' greed runs the world that AcesFull quoted in another thread is disturbing).

 

But do other churches receive this much money? And is there any criteria for deciding which churches get grants and how much?

 

Aside from Obama, this seems weird.

If I was not so opposed to putting a dollar in Obama's pocket, I would buy his books. I am sure that a book inspired by Jeremiah Wright contains some pretty revealing passages. However, I am sure that we will be treated to some free material, thanks to the Fair Use doctrine.

 

BTW, I heard Obama read the "white folk's greed" comment. Apparently, the book is available in an audio format and Obama read it himself. He cannot claim that he was misquoted.

As you all know, all these Rev. Wright things and such really don't affect my ideas about Obama (although I will admit that his quote on white mans' greed runs the world that AcesFull quoted in another thread is disturbing).

 

But do other churches receive this much money? And is there any criteria for deciding which churches get grants and how much?

 

Aside from Obama, this seems weird.

 

Did you read any of the links on my post above? It will take you to other stories of churches and there is plenty more if you just google it.

I'm sorry, I do.

Then you can either ignore my future references to Trinity as a racist organization or we can continue to debate the issue every few days, because it will take some pretty strong evidence to change my mind on the subject. The preponderance of evidence seems to be pretty heavily weighted toward my position, IMO, and I do not expect that all of the evidence is in yet.

There is no excuse to remain a member in an organization that actively promotes a racist agenda and tolerates the kind of sermons delivered by Rev. Wright and Father Pfleger.

There's a very good reason to remain a part of such a body. Rather than jump ship, wouldn't it be better to stay on board and try to bring about change? Being part of a church family is like being married. For better or worse.

 

I'm not saying that's what Barack was doing because in his first book, he calls Wright his mentor. But I would honestly think better of him if he hat stayed at Trinity to fix what's wrong with it, rather than making such an obvious political move of cutting off the gangrene thats stinking him up.

There's a very good reason to remain a part of such a body. Rather than jump ship, wouldn't it be better to stay on board and try to bring about change? Being part of a church family is like being married. For better or worse.

 

I'm not saying that's what Barack was doing because in his first book, he calls Wright his mentor. But I would honestly think better of him if he hat stayed at Trinity to fix what's wrong with it, rather than making such an obvious political move of cutting off the gangrene thats stinking him up.

If Obama has spent 20 years trying to fix Trinity, he has failed miserably. Just another reason not to give him a shot at fixing the largest economy on the planet.

If Obama has spent 20 years trying to fix Trinity, he has failed miserably. Just another reason not to give him a shot at fixing the largest economy on the planet.

 

Personally speaking it is probably easier to fix an economy than a church.

In your opinion and your opinion carries no more weight then AcesFull.

 

I think it is very relevent information.

 

I seem to remember the left being all up in arms a few years back because a large group of conservative pastors used their pulpits to push their ppolitical agenda.

 

Do you not see the hypocrisy in just trying to sweep this under the rug?

 

 

I don't think I said anything about sweeping anything under anything. Investigate it; penalize Trinity, Wright, or whomever. Just said this alone is not enough to dissuade me from going against Obama.

There's a very good reason to remain a part of such a body. Rather than jump ship, wouldn't it be better to stay on board and try to bring about change? Being part of a church family is like being married. For better or worse.

 

I'm not saying that's what Barack was doing because in his first book, he calls Wright his mentor. But I would honestly think better of him if he hat stayed at Trinity to fix what's wrong with it, rather than making such an obvious political move of cutting off the gangrene thats stinking him up.

When it's obvious that at least a very large majority of the members agree with what's wrong then there isn't much to fix. It's time to move on and find a church whose beliefs are more in line with your own. Or maybe he had that already. That is until it became political suicide to stay.

When it's obvious that at least a very large majority of the members agree with what's wrong then there isn't much to fix. It's time to move on and find a church whose beliefs are more in line with your own. Or maybe he had that already. That is until it became political suicide to stay.

Oh, I agree with that and what Aces said. I just don't want to make a blanket statement that someone should leave a church when it gets off the proper path.

Oh, I agree with that and what Aces said. I just don't want to make a blanket statement that someone should leave a church when it gets off the proper path.

 

If such a person can get things changed, then he/she should stay. But if his/her values are different than the majority of the church members (and thus is unlikely to effectuate change) than I think such person should leave that church. Heck that is true for membership in any organization, whether it be a church, a company, a civic organization or whatever.

A lot of churches get government grants..........

 

 

But $1 Million a year for 15 years............come on people.

 

 

I thought Obama was about change and not playing politics and favorites.........................

:thumb:

 

It will take more than what his former church received or does to dissuade me from voting his way.

 

:thumb:

I certainly agree,this doesn't matter to me at all. I have plenty more reasons and much more important ones as well than this NOT to vote for the man.

As far as this goes Obama preaches (no pun intended) that he has not or will not take any (pork fat) funding.......:sssh:.

Right, there wasn't one penny being shuffled his way from that and by the way, the Pope is a Baptist.

A lot of churches get government grants..........

 

 

But $1 Million a year for 15 years............come on people.

 

 

I thought Obama was about change and not playing politics and favorites.........................

 

:thumb:Exactly, refer to my last line in post 44.

Edited June 3, 200818 yr by HHSDad