The problem is with the premise of the question. It assumes that Salvation is a one time event "once saved" and a one time equation. That is what we have done with a savior whose primary goal was to teach us how to live, not how to get to heaven.

 

The scripture even tells us, I think it is probably Paul, that you have to work your salvation out daily. Salvation is not a one time event it is growing relationship with God, revealed most perfectly to us in Jesus.

 

See - we work to hard at setting up rules and deciding who will and who will not get into heaven - what we ned to work hard at is loving God BY loving our neighbor and therefore strengthening our relationship.

 

Who are any of us to say if the person who murdered the homosexual will go to heaven and again that is not what it is all about.

 

We even pray, in the Lord's prayer, not about us going to heaven - have you noticed that, never does it say 'help me get to heaven' - but about God's kingdom coming to earth. Salvation is a WAY of living - which is loving - If you read Matthew 25: 31 - 46 it says that those who are going to heaven are the ones that fed the hungry, visited the prisoner, gave drink to the thirsty, etc. - IT SAYS NOTHING about doctrine or belief, but about a WAY of life. Salvation is not about making a one time statement and believing one thing over another it IS about being a disciple and honoring God/Jesus by LIVING LIKE Jesus and therefore LOVING THOSE WHO CURSE YOU AND PRAYING FOR THOSE WHO ATTEMPT TO OPPRESS YOU.

 

The yoke is easy and the burden light (not a lot of rules and regulations to follow) but living a life of pure love is tough.

acemona, you beat me to the punch...and stated it much better than I could have.:thumb:

still researching...

still researching...

 

Me too

"He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46).

 

"See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

 

"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)."

 

By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:10),

 

"If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen" (1 John 4:20),

 

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3)

 

And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6)

 

I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27).

 

heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9).

 

Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

yes. yes Judas is in heaven. Grace isn't necessarily FAIR.

Thats why its grace.

Judas gave back the silver. He had to do what he did. He is in Heaven. He believed in Jesus. The word "Believe" is in the book of John 99 times.

 

See Revelation 3:25...I'm at the hotel and my Bible is in my bag in my room.

 

"Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess Jesus is LORD". This doesn't say SOME KNEES....

I don't disagree that one might call himself saved and not be; certainly I think that's so. However, I think your reference to "sin" is very narrow, perhaps engendered by the murder example from earlier. "Sin" can refer to anything, whether it be unfairly yelling at your child or murdering another person. There are no degrees of sin, just sin. So all of us, even those of us who are saved, may continue to sin, fail, and disappoint God; the difference is not the sin, its the repentance.

 

My reference to sin was intentionally narrow. And no doubt, we all will continue to sin, especially me it seems. Thank God the Holy Spirit convicts us and leads us to feelings of guilt and repentence. In All Tell's example, his ficticious murderer seems to be using an expression of faith as a shield. Again, I contend that no one who is truly in touch with the Holy Spirit could commit such an act and feel no remorse. However, as I said, I can have an opinion concerning his salvation, but I'm not The One he will have to answer to.

still researching... thanks for the verses Rockmom, I will be studying each one carefully!

I've always envisioned that Judas went to Heaven. He was predestined to betray Jesus, and I believe he repented before he hung himself. He obviously regretted what he had done, was grief stricken, and believed that Jesus was the Son of God. I guess the next issue is, is suicide a forgivable sin?

 

yes. yes Judas is in heaven. Grace isn't necessarily FAIR.

Thats why its grace.

 

Judas gave back the silver. He had to do what he did. He is in Heaven. He believed in Jesus. The word "Believe" is in the book of John 99 times.

 

See Revelation 3:25...I'm at the hotel and my Bible is in my bag in my room.

 

"Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess Jesus is LORD". This doesn't say SOME KNEES....

 

John 17

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6"I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

Jesus indicates that Judas was lost and I would assume that would mean Hell.

In addition, in Acts 1:25, it is written about Judas...

 

23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

 

That sure doesn't seem to be written in the positive tone. And being in Heaven would surely be a positive tone.

Well, that kinda of sums it up doesn't it LBBC!

To piggyback on this topic, the senior minister (even though he is a young whippersnapper) and I have been talking in emails about this and he shared that he believes there is Scriptural evidence that there will be different levels of Hell which would then support that there is different levels of sin that we have not asked for forgiveness for.

 

Here is what he pointed out.

 

Also varying degrees of reward in Heaven. Here's some

Scriptures:

 

1 Corinthians 3: 12-15 (refers to some being saved, but as "escaping through the flames"--barely making it, in other words).

 

Revelation 21: 12-13 (John distinguishes that there are "books"--plural & also a Book of Life. Book of life records the names of heaven's citizens. But John says the dead are judged by what is written in the books--again, this is plural. I believe the books record the deeds done while in the flesh. So heaven & hell are determined by whether or not we have God's grace--Jesus. But what we receive in heaven/hell is determined by works).

 

Matthew 11: 21-22 (Jesus is warning three cities--Korazin, Bethsaida, & Capernaum. The people of these cities had seen him perform miracles, yet refused to believe. The result? Jesus said it will be "more bearable for Tyre & Sidon on the Day of Judgment than for you." Tyre & Sidon were two wicked OT cities. However, they were not privileged to see the miracles of Jesus, as these other three cities were. So Jesus says, "Because you've seen this and refused to believe, your judgment will be worse than theirs."

 

Again, heaven & hell are determined by our acceptance/rejection of God's grace. But our degree of reward/punishment is based on what we do. I'm certianly not expecting a reward to the degree of Paul's or Mother Theresa's or whoever.

That is in an interesting perspective!

That is in an interesting perspective!

 

I particularly felt the Matthew Scriptures were revealing. If one's judgement is worse than the others, it would seem that there is varying degrees of sin and the price that has to be paid for it.