Did God write the rules, or did humans write the rules?

God although at times, human's egoes get in the way and they try to tweak and rewrite the rules.

Can you show me God's handwriting?

 

My point is... humans wrote the rules they thought God would want. Being human rules, they are fallible.

Can you show me God's handwriting?

 

My point is... humans wrote the rules they thought God would want. Being human rules, they are fallible.

 

Bible.

 

It is God-breathed. I believe that is the description that is used.

I read no more cause I have no clue what you are saying in the first paragraph.

 

I read the whole thing. Twice.

 

If Acemona's goal was to impress me with his vocabulary, he did well. If his goal was to cause me to see his point of view and to clarify his opinion, he failed miserably.

Can you show me God's handwriting?

 

My point is... humans wrote the rules they thought God would want. Being human rules, they are fallible.

 

My question for those who don't think the Bible is the word of God yet profess to be a believer of one or another Judeo-Christian religion is :What guideline do you follow?

I read the whole thing. Twice.

 

If Acemona's goal was to impress me with his vocabulary, he did well. If his goal was to cause me to see his point of view and to clarify his opinion, he failed miserably.

 

:thumb:

 

It seems to use the age old practice of picking and choosing scriptures, distorting the meaning and taking them out of context.

I like Ace I enjoy reading his thoughts....but I wonder if he writes his own stuff. Sometimes if we speak from the heart it works out well sometimes, thats why I sound like I do.

 

Again, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess before Jesus Christ. This is written in blood, Jesus's blood not Billys and any mans.

I like Ace I enjoy reading his thoughts....but I wonder if he writes his own stuff. Sometimes if we speak from the heart it works out well sometimes, thats why I sound like I do.

 

Again, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess before Jesus Christ. This is written in blood, Jesus's blood not Billys and any mans.

 

I tend to sometimes turn "someone else's phrase" but not as a notion to impress but try to be clearer in my explanation. The previous attempt was obviously a poor one.

 

What I meant to convey was that we look at scripture in a post - enlightenment logical way and it was written well before the enlightenment. We tend to take literally what was never meant to be taken literally. The Greek that was used to in Paul's version of I am the Way and Truth is not meant as a factual literal Truth but as a personification of Truth in the form of Jesus. Therefore we can only know truth through that relationship and I will guarantee that my relationship with Jesus is no where near that same as yours - any of yours so the truth is relative.

 

I have posted on here before the story from Campolo about the Asian Holy man who was being witnessed to by a Western Christian. After he finished the Christian asked if the Holy Man wanted to know Christ. The Holy Man responded - "I have known Christ all my life, you have just now given him a name." This goes straight to the heart of the Cosmic Christ that can find you wherever you are and whether or not you have ever seen the Bible or a Western Missionary - Jesus is the Hound of Heaven and will hunt you down regardless.

 

And back to the question of taken the Bible Literally. Paul said that Jesus would return before Paul died. He truly believed that. Jesus did not return so how do we reconcile Paul's words IN THE BIBLE with what actually happened.

 

LASTLY - does not the scripture above "every knee will bow" show that EVERYONE will eventually know Jesus as Savior? That is all that thief on the cross acknowledged, why would it be different for anyone else?

I tend to sometimes turn "someone else's phrase" but not as a notion to impress but try to be clearer in my explanation. The previous attempt was obviously a poor one.

 

What I meant to convey was that we look at scripture in a post - enlightenment logical way and it was written well before the enlightenment. We tend to take literally what was never meant to be taken literally. The Greek that was used to in Paul's version of I am the Way and Truth is not meant as a factual literal Truth but as a personification of Truth in the form of Jesus. Therefore we can only know truth through that relationship and I will guarantee that my relationship with Jesus is no where near that same as yours - any of yours so the truth is relative.

 

I have posted on here before the story from Campolo about the Asian Holy man who was being witnessed to by a Western Christian. After he finished the Christian asked if the Holy Man wanted to know Christ. The Holy Man responded - "I have known Christ all my life, you have just now given him a name." This goes straight to the heart of the Cosmic Christ that can find you wherever you are and whether or not you have ever seen the Bible or a Western Missionary - Jesus is the Hound of Heaven and will hunt you down regardless.

 

And back to the question of taken the Bible Literally. Paul said that Jesus would return before Paul died. He truly believed that. Jesus did not return so how do we reconcile Paul's words IN THE BIBLE with what actually happened.

 

LASTLY - does not the scripture above "every knee will bow" show that EVERYONE will eventually know Jesus as Savior? That is all that thief on the cross acknowledged, why would it be different for anyone else?

 

Because the thief acknowledged it before he died...

 

To believe that everyone will eventually be saved requires completely ignoring a large portion of scripture...if anyone wants to believe that, there's nothing I can do about it. But, it is impossible to take the Bible as a whole and support that view.

 

Hebrews 9:27, 28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death unto life.

 

1 Peter 4:17,18 For the time has come for judgement to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? Now, "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

 

What about the story of Lazarus and the rich man? The rich man died and went to Hades where he was tormented. He begged that someone would be sent to his father's house to warn his brothers lest they end up there with him. Why would he beg for that if hell wasn't a real place that unsaved people go after death?

 

What about all the teaching from Jesus about hell? I certainly don't get the idea that He's warning people about a place that they can't ultimately end up going.

 

Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

How can you ignore these verses/passages or explain them away? And, these are just a tiny portion of the scriptures that address the issue of eternal judgement and the fact that people will be there. The position that everyone will be saved cannot be defended unless some scripture is conveniently ignored, some is taken out of context and some human opinion or idea is added to it.

Because the thief acknowledged it before he died...

 

To believe that everyone will eventually be saved requires completely ignoring a large portion of scripture...if anyone wants to believe that, there's nothing I can do about it. But, it is impossible to take the Bible as a whole and support that view.

 

Hebrews 9:27, 28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death unto life.

 

1 Peter 4:17,18 For the time has come for judgement to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? Now, "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

 

What about the story of Lazarus and the rich man? The rich man died and went to Hades where he was tormented. He begged that someone would be sent to his father's house to warn his brothers lest they end up there with him. Why would he beg for that if hell wasn't a real place that unsaved people go after death?

 

What about all the teaching from Jesus about hell? I certainly don't get the idea that He's warning people about a place that they can't ultimately end up going.

 

Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

How can you ignore these verses/passages or explain them away? And, these are just a tiny portion of the scriptures that address the issue of eternal judgement and the fact that people will be there. The position that everyone will be saved cannot be defended unless some scripture is conveniently ignored, some is taken out of context and some human opinion or idea is added to it.

 

So we are judged according to our works - based on the scripture from revelations. So it has nothing to do with faith and belief? matthew 25: 36-41 says the same thing - it is not what you believe but how you treat other people.

 

John 5:24 ?? what about those that don't hear the word.

 

Still a lot of questions . . . and there are a lot of scripture that talks about everyone eventually believing, do you ignore those to go with the others?

So we are judged according to our works - based on the scripture from revelations. So it has nothing to do with faith and belief? matthew 25: 36-41 says the same thing - it is not what you believe but how you treat other people.

 

Those whose names are not written in the book of life (i.e., covered by the blood of Jesus) will be judged according to their works...and the works of the flesh can never be enough to get to heaven...therefore, they'll be cast into the lake of fire. That's what the scripture from revelation says...just a little different from what you're trying to imply.

 

If we could attain salvation from treating other people well, why did Jesus come and die on the cross? He came because there was no way we could attain righteousness before God apart from Him...

 

Also, I have to ask, did you even read the scripture you referenced?

 

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

And, the rest of that chapter offers the opposing side of what you referenced and finishes with this

 

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.

 

It doesn't get any clearer than that does it? It doesn't say they'll go into a temporary punishment...it says everlasting. Heaven and hell are real places and the Bible makes it pretty clear that there are going to be people in both for all eternity.

 

John 5:24 ?? what about those that don't hear the word.

 

You're trying to change the discussion...we're talking about whether or not EVERYONE will end up in heaven, so this is not really relevant to the discussion that the Bible clearly states there is a real hell and that people really go there for eternity. Excluding people who don't hear the word, there are clearly people who are well aware of Jesus Christ and still reject Him...I assure you, the Bible is pretty clear that they won't be in Heaven.

 

Still a lot of questions . . . and there are a lot of scripture that talks about everyone eventually believing, do you ignore those to go with the others?

 

Show them to me...don't just say there are a lot of scripture that says this or that without backing it up. I'm almost certain they'll be taken out of context.

Those whose names are not written in the book of life (i.e., covered by the blood of Jesus) will be judged according to their works...and the works of the flesh can never be enough to get to heaven...therefore, they'll be cast into the lake of fire. That's what the scripture from revelation says...just a little different from what you're trying to imply.

 

If we could attain salvation from treating other people well, why did Jesus come and die on the cross? He came because there was no way we could attain righteousness before God apart from Him...

 

Also, I have to ask, did you even read the scripture you referenced?

 

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

And, the rest of that chapter offers the opposing side of what you referenced and finishes with this

 

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.

 

It doesn't get any clearer than that does it? It doesn't say they'll go into a temporary punishment...it says everlasting. Heaven and hell are real places and the Bible makes it pretty clear that there are going to be people in both for all eternity.

 

 

 

You're trying to change the discussion...we're talking about whether or not EVERYONE will end up in heaven, so this is not really relevant to the discussion that the Bible clearly states there is a real hell and that people really go there for eternity. Excluding people who don't hear the word, there are clearly people who are well aware of Jesus Christ and still reject Him...I assure you, the Bible is pretty clear that they won't be in Heaven.

 

 

 

Show them to me...don't just say there are a lot of scripture that says this or that without backing it up. I'm almost certain they'll be taken out of context.

 

Your original reference is one -"Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

 

I Tim. 2:4, [God our Savior] "who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth"; and

 

I Tim. 2:5,6, "...Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all."

 

In I Cor. 15:22 we read, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

 

1 Peter 3.18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the

unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the

flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the

spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited

in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark.

 

I can give you more.

 

Now taken LITERALLY what do these scriptures say?

A hundred people can read the same scripture and with give different interpretations. There are two things I don't discuss and those are politics and religion . We all have our own opinions.

There are 29 posts so far on this. I think Ms Liberty hit the nail on the head-A hundred people can read the same scripture and will give different interpretations.

"Those are decisions only the Lord will make," Graham replied. "It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there [in heaven] and who won't. ... I don't want to speculate about that."

IMO a very valid point by Rev Graham. We can be doing so much for the Lord(working in missions, visiting the sick, spreading the Gospel, etc) but speculating about a matter that is truly out of our hands in my opinion is a waste of time and energy.