I tend to sometimes turn "someone else's phrase" but not as a notion to impress but try to be clearer in my explanation. The previous attempt was obviously a poor one.

 

What I meant to convey was that we look at scripture in a post - enlightenment logical way and it was written well before the enlightenment. We tend to take literally what was never meant to be taken literally. The Greek that was used to in Paul's version of I am the Way and Truth is not meant as a factual literal Truth but as a personification of Truth in the form of Jesus. Therefore we can only know truth through that relationship and I will guarantee that my relationship with Jesus is no where near that same as yours - any of yours so the truth is relative.

 

I have posted on here before the story from Campolo about the Asian Holy man who was being witnessed to by a Western Christian. After he finished the Christian asked if the Holy Man wanted to know Christ. The Holy Man responded - "I have known Christ all my life, you have just now given him a name." This goes straight to the heart of the Cosmic Christ that can find you wherever you are and whether or not you have ever seen the Bible or a Western Missionary - Jesus is the Hound of Heaven and will hunt you down regardless.

 

And back to the question of taken the Bible Literally. Paul said that Jesus would return before Paul died. He truly believed that. Jesus did not return so how do we reconcile Paul's words IN THE BIBLE with what actually happened.

 

LASTLY - does not the scripture above "every knee will bow" show that EVERYONE will eventually know Jesus as Savior? That is all that thief on the cross acknowledged, why would it be different for anyone else?

If you believe all will be saved and no one will be in Hell, please explain the rich man in Hell that Lazarus was having a conversation with. Who are the goats that Jesus said he will separate out?

A hundred people can read the same scripture and with give different interpretations. There are two things I don't discuss and those are politics and religion . We all have our own opinions.

 

 

 

You'll be very silent and bored on this board then! :lol:

If you believe all will be saved and no one will be in Hell, please explain the rich man in Hell that Lazarus was having a conversation with. Who are the goats that Jesus said he will separate out?

 

 

Please answer my question first: I gave a list of scriptures, several of them, if you take the scripture literally - what do you do with these scriptures that show Christ died for ALL, to cleanse ALL, the righteous and the unrighteous?

Ace,

 

BGP's rules require citation of sources that are derived online.

 

http://www.theandros.com/convers.html

 

Please note the second paragraph.

Ace,

 

BGP's rules require citation of sources that are derived online.

 

http://www.theandros.com/convers.html

 

Please note the second paragraph.

 

my apologies, not meant to plagarize, just quite haven't figured out to do the link thing. sometimes when I copy the link it doesn't "parse?"

 

That is what I meant earlier when I said I turn someone else's phrase for clarity - and failed miserably.

 

I just tried to go back and fix it and couldn't.

Please answer my question first: I gave a list of scriptures, several of them, if you take the scripture literally - what do you do with these scriptures that show Christ died for ALL, to cleanse ALL, the righteous and the unrighteous?

 

You are correct that He died for all. And we have an action to accept Him as our Lord and Savior. We don't do that and we run the risk of spending all eternity in Hell.

Your original reference is one -"Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

 

I Tim. 2:4, [God our Savior] "who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth"; and

 

I Tim. 2:5,6, "...Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all."

 

In I Cor. 15:22 we read, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

 

1 Peter 3.18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the

unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the

flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the

spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited

in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark.

 

I can give you more.

 

Now taken LITERALLY what do these scriptures say?

 

All I can do is tell you my normal method of studying and interpreting scripture...and one that a large number of people use.

 

First, I operate on the understanding that the Bible is God's Word, written by men under God's inspiration and guidance, so what's in there is exactly what God wants to be in there. Second, since God wrote it, it cannot contradict itself. Therefore, if there are two scriptures that seem to disagree with each other, then I'm not understanding it correctly. There has to be an explanation that brings them together.

 

In this case, God is saying that Christ did die for all. However, not all will accept Him, therefore not all will attain salvation. That doesn't change the fact that His sacrifice is sufficient and available to everyone, so in that sense He did die for all. God would love for everyone to make the choice to accept His Son and thus accept life and salvation, however, the Bible states repeatedly that not all will make that decision, instead choosing the path of destruction.

 

These verses cannot be reconciled in an acceptable way otherwise. To try and explain away the verses about hell and the lake of fire and eternal punishment just raises more and more questions...and leads to more contradictions in the scripture itself.

 

That's where I'm coming from...and if I'm wrong, that would be great. That means there is no hell and we'll all be in heaven. :thumb:

All I can do is tell you my normal method of studying and interpreting scripture...and one that a large number of people use.

 

First, I operate on the understanding that the Bible is God's Word, written by men under God's inspiration and guidance, so what's in there is exactly what God wants to be in there. Second, since God wrote it, it cannot contradict itself. Therefore, if there are two scriptures that seem to disagree with each other, then I'm not understanding it correctly. There has to be an explanation that brings them together.

 

In this case, God is saying that Christ did die for all. However, not all will accept Him, therefore not all will attain salvation. That doesn't change the fact that His sacrifice is sufficient and available to everyone, so in that sense He did die for all. God would love for everyone to make the choice to accept His Son and thus accept life and salvation, however, the Bible states repeatedly that not all will make that decision, instead choosing the path of destruction.

 

These verses cannot be reconciled in an acceptable way otherwise. To try and explain away the verses about hell and the lake of fire and eternal punishment just raises more and more questions...and leads to more contradictions in the scripture itself.

 

That's where I'm coming from...and if I'm wrong, that would be great. That means there is no hell and we'll all be in heaven. :thumb:

 

I have to approach the scripture from a certain perspective as well. And that is what is the nature of God revealed to me through Jesus Christ. And it is a God of love, mercy, and grace. I don't know that there isn't a hell, but I can't fathom a God of ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. John Donne referred to Jesus (maybe God, I am not sure) as the Hound of Heaven. It is my hope that for those who have not come to know and recognized the redeeming power of Jesus while living on this earth, that the Love on God will continue to "search" for them in the next life and that they may at some point be redeemed, but only through their own choice.

 

I could not ever see a time when I would exile my child for eternity - I think God's love is more powerful than mine.

 

The writing has to be taken contextually. Paul thought/wrote/said that Jesus was going to return before Paul died. He was wrong - why is that in the Bible. It is at least 2000 years erroneous?

 

I certainly beleive the scripture was inspired, but it was man who decided what books to include and which books to leave out (Josephus), was King James' mind also controlled by God to decide which books. And how do you bring the Greek/Hebrew to the English language when there is often no equivocal terms? You can't, so you get a blurred vision of what the scripture actually says when you read it in English. So you rely on your own experiences and those of others around you, therefore it cannot be literal. Can it?

I have to approach the scripture from a certain perspective as well. And that is what is the nature of God revealed to me through Jesus Christ. And it is a God of love, mercy, and grace. I don't know that there isn't a hell, but I can't fathom a God of ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. John Donne referred to Jesus (maybe God, I am not sure) as the Hound of Heaven. It is my hope that for those who have not come to know and recognized the redeeming power of Jesus while living on this earth, that the Love on God will continue to "search" for them in the next life and that they may at some point be redeemed, but only through their own choice.

 

I could not ever see a time when I would exile my child for eternity - I think God's love is more powerful than mine.

 

The writing has to be taken contextually. Paul thought/wrote/said that Jesus was going to return before Paul died. He was wrong - why is that in the Bible. It is at least 2000 years erroneous?

 

I certainly beleive the scripture was inspired, but it was man who decided what books to include and which books to leave out (Josephus), was King James' mind also controlled by God to decide which books. And how do you bring the Greek/Hebrew to the English language when there is often no equivocal terms? You can't, so you get a blurred vision of what the scripture actually says when you read it in English. So you rely on your own experiences and those of others around you, therefore it cannot be literal. Can it?

 

On the bolded, could you see a time that you would send your child to the cross to be horribly beaten and crucified? How do you see the God of JUST love, mercy and grace as a God who would send his Son to go through what he went through.

 

And to add on the last bolded part, if I end up in exile for all of eternity, that is MY CHOOSING. Not God's. He gave me a choice. Heaven or Hell for all eternity.

 

But some are not happy with only having two choices, so they have created a third choice for themselves.

The Bible states in Rev. that the fearful will not make it to heaven. I believe he is speaking of those "christians" that are afraid to take a stand for the truth. I believe he is speaking for those who are afraid to bring a somewhat controversial message to this earth. Graham and olsteen are two that do not like to preach anything that is not upbeat and easy on the ears. God will hold this against these 2 men one day too. Olsteen said one time he wouldn't preach on homosexuality,abortion,hell, etc.. anything with a negative message. God speaks out against it they had better start doing it too.

The Bible states in Rev. that the fearful will not make it to heaven. I believe he is speaking of those "christians" that are afraid to take a stand for the truth. I believe he is speaking for those who are afraid to bring a somewhat controversial message to this earth. Graham and olsteen are two that do not like to preach anything that is not upbeat and easy on the ears. God will hold this against these 2 men one day too. Olsteen said one time he wouldn't preach on homosexuality,abortion,hell, etc.. anything with a negative message. God speaks out against it they had better start doing it too.

 

Did you notice that you kept saying "I believe"? But you can't "know". How can you say God will hold this against the men - You know God's heart?

 

Do you know how little the words of Christ reflect teaching on Hell? It Christ didn't preach about it, why should Osteen or Graham. BTW I don't think you have heard many of Graham's sermons if you don't think he preached on hell.

 

Also, we all KNOW that Revelation is symbolism. It is meant to convey a meaning to the people it was written to. It is the one book that we KNOW we are not supposed to take literally.

Did you notice that you kept saying "I believe"? But you can't "know". How can you say God will hold this against the men - You know God's heart?

 

Do you know how little the words of Christ reflect teaching on Hell? It Christ didn't preach about it, why should Osteen or Graham. BTW I don't think you have heard many of Graham's sermons if you don't think he preached on hell.

 

Also, we all KNOW that Revelation is symbolism. It is meant to convey a meaning to the people it was written to. It is the one book that we KNOW we are not supposed to take literally.

 

Hell was the thing that Christ taught on the MOST!

 

I don't KNOW that Revelation is symbolism and I think there are definite parts that are literal.

Hell was the thing that Christ taught on the MOST!

 

I don't KNOW that Revelation is symbolism and I think there are definite parts that are literal.

 

:thumb:

 

I think too much is made of a literal vs. symbolic interpretation when reading the Bible. Clearly, both are used...I generally operate on the assumption that if it makes sense to be taken literally, then take it literally. So, I think Revelation is like the rest of the Bible in that sense...some parts are literal, some aren't.

 

As for defending the position against no hell by referencing Christ's teachings, I'm baffled. I'm not sure whether Jesus taught about hell more than anything else (I'm skeptical of that), but He certainly place a big emphasis on it.

ACE..."God's heart?" He needs a heart like a man? Or he has the feelings "from the heart like a human"?

 

We cannot question our creator, thats why he is who he is. When asked who are you he said "I am."

 

Explaining GOD is like me finding an ant outside on the ground and picking it up and telling it "I'll tell you about the internet".

 

Thats why he left his word written by man through GOD.

 

 

He also tells us of a pattern to have life after death. And that is through Jesus Christ. All humans have choice they make on earth on how they live and treat others, and how they follow that pattern which I spoke of earlier.

 

Men are called by GOD to carry that message to others where at that time they can look for themselves and decide if they want to have everlasting life in Heaven or Hell.

 

 

Humans who don't get to hear the pattern will be taken care of in his own way. I ask people reading this wonderful site....Have you followed the pattern set forth by your creator? Its a hard decision for some, change your life style, give up some things you enjoy, sharing the word and loving others?

 

And finally...what if I'm right about the pattern and you who don't believe are wrong. What have I lost if there is no Heaven? But what have you lost if there is and you didn't believe.

 

In the book of John the word Believe is seen 99 times. But the devil also believes in Jesus so you must repent from your sins and confess with your mouth "Jesus is LORD" and join a fellowship where you are Baptized into the spirit of Jesus and showing your fellow brothers and sisters you are now a disciple of Jesus Christ.

 

Then you start like a newborn baby and reading the word and growing in your new Faith and telling others about Jesus as you witness to them. Pray for others and yourself.

 

Not only can Joel and Billy share the Gospel but so can we.

Hell was the thing that Christ taught on the MOST!

 

The most? Really? :creepy: