Westy, a "great defensive second baseman?" Wow -- that is all I can say. He was a likable guy with a great stick on TV every day when no one else was. Heck, off the top of my head, I'd take Manny Trillo over Ryno defensively.

You can make an argument for Trillo. Both were great defensively.

 

Sandberg was impressive enough with the leather to win a Gold Glove in his first full year at second base ... unseating Trillo, as it turns out. And that's the season before he won the MVP award and led the Cubs to the division title. That doesn't seem like a "popularity" vote ... it looks like an award that he earned with his play on the field, and his stats bear that out.

Will you (Westy) admit that him being a likable guy on TV everyday when no one else was contributed to his gold gloves? Will you further admit that his lack of errors, which I don't dispute, swayed the "average fan" moreso than his lack of range hurt him with the same crop of folks?

Will you (Westy) admit that him being a likable guy on TV everyday when no one else was contributed to his gold gloves? Will you further admit that his lack of errors, which I don't dispute, swayed the "average fan" moreso than his lack of range hurt him with the same crop of folks?

If he had a lack of range, as you say he did, then why was he consistently making many more plays per season than the average second baseman? The stats clearly bear that out.

 

And, as I indicated in my previous post, he was winning Gold Gloves before he became a household name.

 

Heck, Glenn Hubbard was a very good second baseman, too ... and he was on TBS all the time. Did that exposure help him win any Gold Gloves?

If he had a lack of range, as you say he did, then why was he consistently making many more plays per season than the average second baseman? The stats clearly bear that out.

 

 

You comparing him to the "average" second baseman now? Heck, that works for me.

 

For the record, I just picked a random year where he played a full season, 1989, and found this:

 

* He played in the 4th most games of any 2B. (behind Sax, Alomar, and Oquendo).

 

* He was 5th in Total Chances among 2B. (behind Sax, Alomar, Oquendo, and Harold Reynolds)

 

* He was 9th in put-outs.

 

* He was 4th in assists

 

* He was 13th in double plays turned.

 

Just useless info to keep the healthy conversation started. Listen, while I think Ryno was hugely over-valued, I do think he is deservedly in the Hall. I'm not saying he doesn't belong. I'm saying that his defensive abilities were largely over-stated.

You comparing him to the "average" second baseman now? Heck, that works for me.

 

Just useless info to keep the healthy conversation started. Listen, while I think Ryno was hugely over-valued, I do think he is deservedly in the Hall. I'm not saying he doesn't belong. I'm saying that his defensive abilities were largely over-stated.

He wasn't just above average. He was consistently way above average.

 

Was Sandberg overrated defensively? Probably so, by some Cubs fans. In my opinion, he was still a great defensive second baseman.

 

Oquendo and Alomar were, too.

Was Sandberg overrated defensively? Probably so, by some Cubs fans. In my opinion, he was still a great defensive second baseman.

 

Oquendo and Alomar were, too.

 

Okay, so far we're at Sandberg was great, Trillo was comparable, and now Oquendo and Alomar were great too. Hmm? :walk:

 

I didn't realize at the time we were in such an era of wizardry at the 4-spot. :bunny:

Okay, so far we're at Sandberg was great, Trillo was comparable, and now Oquendo and Alomar were great too. Hmm? :walk:

 

I didn't realize at the time we were in such an era of wizardry at the 4-spot. :bunny:

We were. Alomar was universally rated as a glove whiz. Oquendo was a good shortstop in his younger days and would have been a good shortstop with the Cardinals, but he played second because they had some guy named Ozzie at short.

 

May want to do a little research on Morgan, he moved to the 3 spot, most of the time in '75. I believe, he hit almost exclusively in the 2 hole, in '73 and other years....not splitting hairs.

 

Correct. I read "most often" as meaning with the Reds. He did bat 2nd for his first 2 years. No clue on where he batted with the Colt 45s.

Heck, off the top of my head, I'd take Manny Trillo over Ryno defensively.

 

Nice.

 

Agreed.

 

Could this be the first BGP Manny Trillo mention?

 

Hats off to you. If we can somehow work in Rennie Stennett, I'll be overjoyed.

Correct. I read "most often" as meaning with the Reds. He did bat 2nd for his first 2 years. No clue on where he batted with the Colt 45s.

I met Morgan, at a place called Boardwalk and Baseball, in Florida back in the 70's.

Nice.

 

Agreed.

 

Could this be the first BGP Manny Trillo mention?

 

Hats off to you. If we can somehow work in Rennie Stennett, I'll be overjoyed.

I mentioned both names, on a thread before...

If he had a lack of range, as you say he did, then why was he consistently making many more plays per season than the average second baseman? The stats clearly bear that out.

 

 

All the stats clearly bear out is that he had a lot of balls hit to him. Nothing more. A ball that he didn't get to that went into RF for a single hurts his defensive stats in no way while that same ball that is gotten to but thrown away at first base hurts the other defender. Who is the better defender in that case?

Let me ask this to the Kent fans.

 

Is he a better offensive player than Joe Morgan?

Let me ask this to the Kent fans.

 

Is he a better offensive player than Joe Morgan?

I would say yes, 6 fewer seasons for Kent, comparable in Hits, right now, more 2B's and HR's....so Yes, on offense.

I would say yes, 6 fewer seasons for Kent, comparable in Hits, right now, more 2B's and HR's....so Yes, on offense.

 

Is he better offensively (completely ignoring defense) than Andre Dawson?

 

If he gets to 400 HRs, will he be better than Johnny Mize (359 bombs)?

 

Is he better offensively than Johnny Bench?

 

Perez?