July 12, 200719 yr What I argue for is drastic change in the hierarchy of the church as the organization. I do not argue to change the faith. They are not one in the same. The hierarchy decides how we hear the faith, how we receive. The faith is what this church was built on. Frankly, what you want won't happen. You might as well look somewhere else if you are that passionate about it. Try the Anglican church.
July 12, 200719 yr Frankly, what you want won't happen. You might as well look somewhere else if you are that passionate about it. Try the Anglican church. That's exactly why the church is alienating anyone who has a question or feels passionate about what's wrong with the church. Instead of doing an inner-audit, the powers who be have decided that our membership in the Catholic church is "take it or leave it." That's exactly what a lot of people are doing, leaving it. The priesthood is graying, the congregation is retiring, and the number of young families are dwindling. I don't want to leave the Catholic church. Look at what I've written, nothing challenges the core of the faith.
July 12, 200719 yr That's exactly why the church is alienating anyone who has a question or feels passionate about what's wrong with the church. Instead of doing an inner-audit, the powers who be have decided that our membership in the Catholic church is "take it or leave it." That's exactly what a lot of people are doing, leaving it. The priesthood is graying, the congregation is retiring, and the number of young families are dwindling. I don't want to leave the Catholic church. Look at what I've written, nothing challenges the core of the faith. In the United States yes, but it has been growing in other countries. In our egocentric view of the world we think of it only in our own backyards yet we often forget that the Catholic (Universal) Church is unified across countries all over the world. The problem isn't the Church in America, it is society changing and not for the better. Many of our P rotestant bretheren will agree with that one. Our materialistic, me-centric, culture in many ways is pushing religion and faith by the wayside until something traumatic happens and we want comfort. My problem with what you are saying is that I have heard it many times over from people who are not actively practicing their faith. What that screams to me is that those individuals want it catered to them so they will have a reason to go back. That is not reason to change the church. What you are saying boils down to this in my opinion. You are looking at it from a societal perspective, almost like a business. "We're losing customers and people don't want to work for us anymore," is essentially the gist of what you are saying here. I take issue with that because it screams to me that you want the church to be subject to society and its norms, NO church should ever be that way if it wants to stay true to itself. Again I feel the issue is not the church, rather it is society changing and drifting away from a moral grounding and becoming exceedingly materialistic.
July 12, 200719 yr In the United States yes, but it has been growing in other countries. In our egocentric view of the world we think of it only in our own backyards yet we often forget that the Catholic (Universal) Church is unified across countries all over the world. The problem isn't the Church in America, it is society changing and not for the better. Many of our P rotestant bretheren will agree with that one. Our materialistic, me-centric, culture in many ways is pushing religion and faith by the wayside until something traumatic happens and we want comfort. My problem with what you are saying is that I have heard it many times over from people who are not actively practicing their faith. What that screams to me is that those individuals want it catered to them so they will have a reason to go back. That is not reason to change the church. What you are saying boils down to this in my opinion. You are looking at it from a societal perspective, almost like a business. "We're losing customers and people don't want to work for us anymore," is essentially the gist of what you are saying here. I take issue with that because it screams to me that you want the church to be subject to society and its norms, NO church should ever be that way if it wants to stay true to itself. Again I feel the issue is not the church, rather it is society changing and drifting away from a moral grounding and becoming exceedingly materialistic. The only problem I see with this philosophy, Rock, is that it seems to presume that the Church here in this world is a bastion unto itself, somehow separate from the decaying morality around it. That presumption is erroneous in my opinion. The Church is part of this world. It has an obligation, called by Christ himself, to roll up its sleeves and live in it. It cannot hide under a rock and pretend that decay and immorality aren't occurring inside its own walls. While the Church certainly by no means should change its core principles, it MUST find a way to become and remain relevant to those who are un-churched, or it is not fulfilling its mission. Mexitucky makes a valid point about the negative growth rate of the Catholic church in America. Comparing it to the growth rate of the Church worldwide doesn't really help the argument, because Europe has a general church attendance rate of approximately 3%, so the Catholic church still has a negative growth rate worldwide. I am not singling Catholics out on this point, either. Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church USA, and several other denominations have negative growth rates. Southern Baptists and United Methodist churches have flatlined at 0-1% growth. The growing churches are the western Presbyterian churches, the Mormons, and the African breakoff of the Anglican communion. What is about these churches that are attracting people?
July 12, 200719 yr The only problem I see with this philosophy, Rock, is that it seems to presume that the Church here in this world is a bastion unto itself, somehow separate from the decaying morality around it. That presumption is erroneous in my opinion. The Church is part of this world. It has an obligation, called by Christ himself, to roll up its sleeves and live in it. It cannot hide under a rock and pretend that decay and immorality aren't occurring inside its own walls. While the Church certainly by no means should change its core principles, it MUST find a way to become and remain relevant to those who are un-churched, or it is not fulfilling its mission. Mexitucky makes a valid point about the negative growth rate of the Catholic church in America. Comparing it to the growth rate of the Church worldwide doesn't really help the argument, because Europe has a general church attendance rate of approximately 3%, so the Catholic church still has a negative growth rate worldwide. I am not singling Catholics out on this point, either. Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church USA, and several other denominations have negative growth rates. Southern Baptists and United Methodist churches have flatlined at 0-1% growth. The growing churches are the western Presbyterian churches, the Mormons, and the African breakoff of the Anglican communion. What is about these churches that are attracting people? I understand what you are saying. All churches are made up of people and we are inherently imprefect. I understand that. There are problems within the church, but I disagree with Mexitucky as to what they are. He feels it is the top down that is the issue, I don't see it that way. The stats I looked at to worldwide growth must have been older. I need to double check them, but can't from work. Darn firewalls. Also I cannot in good faith say that a church must change with society. The sound of that gives an indication of transience, and while all things that are man made are indeed transient, it just doesn't sit well with me. The only thing that is not transient is God, no church is God nor is the Bible God. The only absolute truth is God, problem is we're all here trying to understand God as best we can and bicker about it.
July 12, 200719 yr Author What does the Catholic Church do to recruit new members? Quick joke break: A man answers his door to find two Jehovah's Witness. He invites them in, they sit down and the homeowner says "Now, what would you like to talk to me about?" The two Witnesses look at each other and finally one says "I'm not sure, we've never gotten this far before."
July 12, 200719 yr What does the Catholic Church do to recruit new members? Quick joke break: A man answers his door to find two Jehovah's Witness. He invites them in, they sit down and the homeowner says "Now, what would you like to talk to me about?" The two Witnesses look at each other and finally one says "I'm not sure, we've never gotten this far before." :lol: :lol: :lol: As to the first one it has been my experience that we, as individuals, share our faith with those who express an interest and from there they make their own decision as to whether why wish to convert. Usually they talk to a priest or two with some of their questions in the process. Mission trips are also common to other countries as well, along with lasting missionary presences in Africa and South America. Many of us were born into it and reaffirmed it later in our lives.
July 12, 200719 yr I understand what you are saying. All churches are made up of people and we are inherently imprefect. I understand that. There are problems within the church, but I disagree with Mexitucky as to what they are. He feels it is the top down that is the issue, I don't see it that way. The stats I looked at to worldwide growth must have been older. I need to double check them, but can't from work. Darn firewalls. Also I cannot in good faith say that a church must change with society. The sound of that gives an indication of transience, and while all things that are man made are indeed transient, it just doesn't sit well with me. The only thing that is not transient is God, no church is God nor is the Bible God. The only absolute truth is God, problem is we're all here trying to understand God as best we can and bicker about it. We finally agree on something.
July 12, 200719 yr The only problem I see with this philosophy, Rock, is that it seems to presume that the Church here in this world is a bastion unto itself, somehow separate from the decaying morality around it. That presumption is erroneous in my opinion. The Church is part of this world. It has an obligation, called by Christ himself, to roll up its sleeves and live in it. It cannot hide under a rock and pretend that decay and immorality aren't occurring inside its own walls. While the Church certainly by no means should change its core principles, it MUST find a way to become and remain relevant to those who are un-churched, or it is not fulfilling its mission. Mexitucky makes a valid point about the negative growth rate of the Catholic church in America. Comparing it to the growth rate of the Church worldwide doesn't really help the argument, because Europe has a general church attendance rate of approximately 3%, so the Catholic church still has a negative growth rate worldwide. I am not singling Catholics out on this point, either. Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church USA, and several other denominations have negative growth rates. Southern Baptists and United Methodist churches have flatlined at 0-1% growth. The growing churches are the western Presbyterian churches, the Mormons, and the African breakoff of the Anglican communion. What is about these churches that are attracting people? I don't know what the panic is about the decline in membership of the Cathlic Church in America. Because it relies on data collected by the church bodies, the 2007 yearbook covers 2005 data gathered by the churches in 2006. The yearbook reports what year the figures come from, since not all churches collect new data every year. The Catholic Church remained the largest Christian church in the U.S. in 2005 with a reported membership of 69,135,254, or nearly 42 percent of all Christian church membership. With an increase of 1.94 percent over its previous year's total, the Catholic Church was also among the fastest-growing of the nation's 25 largest churches, followed closely by the Assemblies of God, which recorded 1.86 percent growth, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with 1.63 percent growth. In 2004 the Catholic Church came in third behind the other two in rate of growth. Because of annual fluctuations, a better indicator of trends is membership change over a longer period, such as a decade. Between the 1997 and 2007 yearbooks, the recorded change in Catholic population was from 60.3 million to 69.1 million, or an increase of 15 percent. The Assemblies of God recorded growth of nearly 19 percent in that decade, and the Latter-day Saints grew by nearly 21 percent Yearbook says U.S. Christian church membership rising This article was released 4/26/07. I submit that rumors of the demise of the Catholic Church in America are greatly exaggerated.
July 12, 200719 yr There is nothing in place to keep the people from reading the Bible or understand it. Not anymore, that is a thing of the past as rockmom pointed out in the other thread. Define form over substance here, I am not sure where exactly you extrapolated that from my initial point. I applaud the Church letting the people read the Bible. Now they should encourage it. What I mean by form over substance is that a great number of Catholics that I know are not immeresed in the mystery. They are not followers of the faith, but followers of the ritual. Catholicism appears to them more like a job than a faith walk. The things they do for and with the church become just part of the job. They go to their obligatory Mass, stand up, sit down, kneel, recite, respond but are never really their. Same goes for work in and around the church. Its a duty to them, not a willful enjoining. I'm not saying that all Catholics are like this. But, my word, the Catholic church has a huge audience just waiting for some real meaning to their lives, to have something to believe in, not in their head, but in their heart. Not because their father, and their father's father was catholic, but because they hear God speak to them at St. XYZ. I agree that the Church should not conform to society. But they must address the issues and needs of society, just as Christ did. And they must look to their past and reconcile their "tradition" with the Holy Bible. I have nothing against Mass, even if it is in Latin, Confession, or the other Sacrements important to the Catholic Church. But the Church MUST be sure that its dogma is for the furtherance of the body of Christ, not the furtherance of the Roman Catholic Church. They must remember to walk in The Shoes of the Fisherman. I pray for a strong, vital, relevant and living Roman Catholic Church. I argue not from a mistrust or hatred of the Church, but from a love and hope for it.
July 12, 200719 yr So...I ran across this. Maybe it will help clear some things up: Catholic Facts and General Knowledge Catholic Belief To gain the happiness of heaven we must know, love, and serve God in this world. Man must know, love and serve God in a supernatural manner in order to gain happiness of heaven. Man is raised to the supernatural order only by grace, a free gift of God. We learn to know, love, and serve God from Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who teaches us through the Catholic Church. In order to be saved, all persons who have attained the use of reason must believe explicitly that God exist and that he rewards the good and punishes the wicked; in practice they must also believe in the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation. By the Blessed Trinity we mean one and the same God in three divine persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. By the Incarnation is meant that the Son of God, retaining His divine nature, took to Himself a human nature, that is, a body and soul like ours. The Church is the congregation of all baptized persons united in the same true faith, the same sacrifice, and the same sacraments, under the authority of the Sovereign Pontiff and the bishops in communion with him. We find the chief truths taught by Jesus Christ through the Catholic Church in the Apostles' Creed. The Commandments Besides believing what God has revealed, we must keep His law. The Two Great Commandments that contain the whole law of God are: You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole mind, and with your whole strength; you shall love your neighbor as yourself. To love God, our neighbor, and ourselves, we must keep the commandments of God and of the Church, and perform the spiritual and corporal works of mercy. The Ten Commandments of God I am the Lord your God; you shall not have strange gods before me. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. Remember to keep holy the Lord's day Honor your father and your mother. You shall not kill. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. You shall not covet you neighbor's goods. The Chief Commandments or Laws, of the Church To assist at Mass on all Sundays and holy days of obligation. To fast and abstain on the days appointed. To confess our sins at least once a year. To receive Holy Communion during the Easter time. To contribute to the support of the Church. To observe the laws of the Church concerning marriage.
July 12, 200719 yr I applaud the Church letting the people read the Bible. Now they should encourage it. What I mean by form over substance is that a great number of Catholics that I know are not immeresed in the mystery. They are not followers of the faith, but followers of the ritual. Catholicism appears to them more like a job than a faith walk. The things they do for and with the church become just part of the job. They go to their obligatory Mass, stand up, sit down, kneel, recite, respond but are never really their. Same goes for work in and around the church. Its a duty to them, not a willful enjoining. I'm not saying that all Catholics are like this. But, my word, the Catholic church has a huge audience just waiting for some real meaning to their lives, to have something to believe in, not in their head, but in their heart. Not because their father, and their father's father was catholic, but because they hear God speak to them at St. XYZ. I agree that the Church should not conform to society. But they must address the issues and needs of society, just as Christ did. And they must look to their past and reconcile their "tradition" with the Holy Bible. I have nothing against Mass, even if it is in Latin, Confession, or the other Sacrements important to the Catholic Church. But the Church MUST be sure that its dogma is for the furtherance of the body of Christ, not the furtherance of the Roman Catholic Church. They must remember to walk in The Shoes of the Fisherman. I pray for a strong, vital, relevant and living Roman Catholic Church. I argue not from a mistrust or hatred of the Church, but from a love and hope for it. I can't say I really disagree with you there.
July 12, 200719 yr Has the Pope been to a worship service at my Church? To a Bible study, has he heard the testimonies from people who have Jesus and had their lives transformed? Not only my church but all the churches and religions that he has spoke about. I don't want to be funny or make someone mad...But someone RockMom or anybody explain bowing and kissing the ring of the Pope? I rememeber Coach Pitino making a joke about "the Pope couldn't kiss my ring I don't have one". I'm not going to comment on the Catholic Faith, but will use scripture if need to. RockMom asked me a couple of questions, By all means Catholics can have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ...the Bible is for everyone and so is Jesus. I'm not sure if the Catholics worship the Pope. I'll be honest I don't know much about the Pope and his people on a relationship level. I think its OK for the Catholics to have a spirtitual leader and when they had to find a new Pope I watched with interest. Like I said before I was on a radio show with Preachers who said my family was in hell because we are Baptists,, so I don't speak badly of others beliefs. Its wrong and the Pope is wrong in saying what he said. Its his thoughs and he is human so his statement doesn't concern me.
July 12, 200719 yr So...I ran across this. Maybe it will help clear some things up: Catholic Facts and General Knowledge Catholic Belief To gain the happiness of heaven we must know, love, and serve God in this world. Man must know, love and serve God in a supernatural manner in order to gain happiness of heaven. Man is raised to the supernatural order only by grace, a free gift of God. We learn to know, love, and serve God from Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who teaches us through the Catholic Church. In order to be saved, all persons who have attained the use of reason must believe explicitly that God exist and that he rewards the good and punishes the wicked; in practice they must also believe in the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation. By the Blessed Trinity we mean one and the same God in three divine persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. By the Incarnation is meant that the Son of God, retaining His divine nature, took to Himself a human nature, that is, a body and soul like ours. The Church is the congregation of all baptized persons united in the same true faith, the same sacrifice, and the same sacraments, under the authority of the Sovereign Pontiff and the bishops in communion with him. We find the chief truths taught by Jesus Christ through the Catholic Church in the Apostles' Creed. The Commandments Besides believing what God has revealed, we must keep His law. The Two Great Commandments that contain the whole law of God are: You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole mind, and with your whole strength; you shall love your neighbor as yourself. To love God, our neighbor, and ourselves, we must keep the commandments of God and of the Church, and perform the spiritual and corporal works of mercy. The Ten Commandments of God I am the Lord your God; you shall not have strange gods before me. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. Remember to keep holy the Lord's day Honor your father and your mother. You shall not kill. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. You shall not covet you neighbor's goods. The Chief Commandments or Laws, of the Church To assist at Mass on all Sundays and holy days of obligation. To fast and abstain on the days appointed. To confess our sins at least once a year. To receive Holy Communion during the Easter time. To contribute to the support of the Church. To observe the laws of the Church concerning marriage. So, in order to be saved and go to heaven, you must "do" all the things listed above? This to me, is a works salvation, not a grace salvation. Grace requires nothing but a sincere repentance and acceptance of God's gift. While we as Christians perform good works, it is not to receive salvation but out of love for our Lord who gave His life as a sacrifice for our sins. We are not "working" our way to heaven; that is a free gift, Jesus paid it ALL.
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