Thanks, but I understand many things.

 

Wait, maybe I don't. I don't understand why that in a country based on religious freedom that the religious laws of Islam are less valid than the religious laws of Christianity. I don't understand why so many people feel that by not supporting a war that you are are anti-American. I don't understand why there are still people in this country that think that the war in Iraq was a direct result of 9/11 and that Saddam and Osama were "two peas in a pod". And I don't understand why people that are so adamant that our country be free don't actually want people to have freedom.

 

Maybe we should study up on Islam and find out what the religion is actually about, rather than letting our views be skewed by the extremists. I honestly don't want non-Christians to have their perception of Christianity tainted by Christian extremist groups such as the Westboro Church "ladies" or other groups that hold the bible in one hand and spew hate from their lips.

 

I'm somewhat off topic, I know. My steam has just kind of built up a little too much I guess.:irked:

Good post. :thumb:

It's my opinion that if called upon to serve your country, you do it. You may not like or agree with the war, but you stand up for your country. This country allows you to have freedom and IMO you must be willing to fight to keep those freedoms.

 

Ali may have felt that it was against his religion to fight, but I'm sure there are many other things his religion was against that he knowingly and willingly did anyway.

 

IMO he used his religion as a "cop-out" to try to make his dissention more appealing to the public. The war was widely criticized, and he was the perfect "iconic" figure to lead the anti-war charge.

 

Great boxer, nothing special as a person.

It's my opinion that if called upon to serve your country, you do it. You may not like or agree with the war, but you stand up for your country. This country allows you to have freedom and IMO you must be willing to fight to keep those freedoms.

 

Ali may have felt that it was against his religion to fight, but I'm sure there are many other things his religion was against that he knowingly and willingly did anyway.

 

IMO he used his religion as a "cop-out" to try to make his dissention more appealing to the public. The war was widely criticized, and he was the perfect "iconic" figure to lead the anti-war charge.

 

Great boxer, nothing special as a person.

So if we hadn't gone to war with Vietnam we would have lost our freedoms?

 

I'm not saying there isn't but I can't think of one example of something that he did in his life that was against his religion.

 

Whether you agree with his political and religious stances or not you can't deny the tremendous amounts of humanitarian work he has done to better the world we live in. I wish more celebrities would take the time to do such things whether I like them or not and I would greatly appreciate it.

So if we hadn't gone to war with Vietnam we would have lost our freedoms?

 

I'm not saying there isn't but I can't think of one example of something that he did in his life that was against his religion.

 

Whether you agree with his political and religious stances or not you can't deny the tremendous amounts of humanitarian work he has done to better the world we live in. I wish more celebrities would take the time to do such things whether I like them or not and I would greatly appreciate it.

 

 

Not saying that at all...Speaking of war in general.

IMO he used his religion as a "cop-out" to try to make his dissention more appealing to the public. The war was widely criticized, and he was the perfect "iconic" figure to lead the anti-war charge.

 

On one hand I agree with you, but on the other hand, you can't infringe upon the idea of conscientius (SP?) objectors if you also claim religious tolerance.

Thanks, but I understand many things.

 

Wait, maybe I don't. I don't understand why that in a country based on religious freedom that the religious laws of Islam are less valid than the religious laws of Christianity. I don't understand why so many people feel that by not supporting a war that you are are anti-American. I don't understand why there are still people in this country that think that the war in Iraq was a direct result of 9/11 and that Saddam and Osama were "two peas in a pod". And I don't understand why people that are so adamant that our country be free don't actually want people to have freedom.

 

Maybe we should study up on Islam and find out what the religion is actually about, rather than letting our views be skewed by the extremists. I honestly don't want non-Christians to have their perception of Christianity tainted by Christian extremist groups such as the Westboro Church "ladies" or other groups that hold the bible in one hand and spew hate from their lips.

 

I'm somewhat off topic, I know. My steam has just kind of built up a little too much I guess.:irked:

 

Now, why would we want to do that? :lol: That would require that we open our minds to new ideas; put aside our biases; explore new ideas; actually put some effort into understanding one another. I mean...that's bway too much work.

Ali may have felt that it was against his religion to fight, but I'm sure there are many other things his religion was against that he knowingly and willingly did anyway.

 

That may be true. Just like many of us break the law (did everyone obey the speed limit on the way to work today?)

What you think in the bible there is only ten commandments?

So Moses presented the ten commandments and then that was it?

 

War is never a popular decision- but we learn from that very book there will be wars and rumours of wars- that is something we will have to deal with through all eras of times. Until Christ comes back to earth to cleanse it- that is if you believe in CHristian teachings...

Throught-out history Christians and whoever all else have had to fight for freedom, protection, and protection of others.

 

But hey-if different ones wants to look through all this with rose-colored glasses and be a flower toting pansy- then so be it... Just remember who fights/fought to give that freedom to be that way...

 

And as far as a list of Islamic wars- Arabs have been fighting each other since the dawning of their time!!!!!!!!!!!!

They have so many secular groups, and if one dares to show signs of being "westernize" then they are removed from power!

 

And answer me this- so why is it okay to fight what is called Jihad?

But you can't go do duty for the country that you freely live in that

doesn't threaten to kill you or your family if you don't consent to the religion they feel should be the governing religion of all people of the world?

 

If you think for one minute that the middle east is truly going to be our peaceful friends, then you are only kidding yourself.

 

Oh yeah and one more thing- "Bad America"- Saddam should've never been attacked... He only used weapons of M.D. on his own people, and raped and plundered thought-out his country, and cut off hands, fingers, tounges on men that resisted his regime- oh yeah raped their wives and daughters, killed athletes for not scoring enough field goals in soccer games.

Yes by all means, we should have left this man alone, he was no threat to no one, he would never use nuclear capabilites on us or our foreign interests if he had the chance!

Talking generally about the CO issue and not Ali specifically, as again, I did not follow the issue with him, do you think the CO exemption can be exploited if a person "conveniently" converts to a religion opposed to war relatively right before he was going to be drafted? Wouldn't that make a sham of the draft?

 

As to Ali specifically, when did he convert and when was he drafted?

That may be true. Just like many of us break the law (did everyone obey the speed limit on the way to work today?)

Yep I sure did.

It's my opinion that if called upon to serve your country, you do it. You may not like or agree with the war, but you stand up for your country. This country allows you to have freedom and IMO you must be willing to fight to keep those freedoms.

 

Ali may have felt that it was against his religion to fight, but I'm sure there are many other things his religion was against that he knowingly and willingly did anyway.

 

IMO he used his religion as a "cop-out" to try to make his dissention more appealing to the public. The war was widely criticized, and he was the perfect "iconic" figure to lead the anti-war charge.

 

Great boxer, nothing special as a person.

 

:thumb:

Talking generally about the CO issue and not Ali specifically, as again, I did not follow the issue with him, do you think the CO exemption can be exploited if a person "conveniently" converts to a religion opposed to war relatively right before he was going to be drafted? Wouldn't that make a sham of the draft?

 

As to Ali specifically, when did he convert and when was he drafted?

 

 

 

Name change

 

Ali at an address by Elijah Muhammad

 

 

After winning the championship, he famously revealed that he was a member of the Nation of Islam (often called the Black Muslims at the time) and the Nation gave Clay the name Cassius X, discarding his surname as a symbol of his ancestors' enslavement, as had been done by other Nation members. On Friday, March 6, 1964, Malcolm X took Clay on a guided tour of the United Nations building (for a second time). Malcolm X announced that Clay would be granted his "X." That same night, Elijah Muhammad recorded a statement over the phone to be played over the radio that Clay would be renamed Muhammad (one who is worthy of praise) Ali (fourth rightly guided caliph). Only a few journalists (most notably Howard Cosell) accepted it at that time. Venerable boxing announcer Don Dunphy addressed the champion by his adopted name, as did British reporters. The adoption of this name symbolized his new identity as a member of the Nation of Islam. Clay had discovered the Nation during a Golden Gloves tournament in Chicago in 1959, even writing a high school report on the organization. His schoolteachers at Louisville Central High were alarmed that a youngster with that much potential expressed interest in the nationalist faith. They dissuaded him from becoming involved. Many sportswriters of the early 1960's reported that it was Ali's brother, Rudy Clay, who converted to Islam first (estimating the date as 1962). Others wrote that Clay had been seen at Muslim rallies two years before he fought Liston. Ali's own version is that he did buy a copy of the "Muhammad Speaks" newspaper from a Muslim in Chicago, and a 45 rpm record by Minister Louis X (later Farrakhan) called "A White Man's Heaven is a Black Man's Hell".

 

[/url]

 

Vietnam War nearly ends career

 

In 1964, Ali failed the Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were subpar. However, in early 1966, the tests were revised and Ali was reclassified 1A. He refused to serve in the United States Army during the Vietnam War as a conscientious objector, because "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers."

 

Ali refused to respond to his name being read out as Cassius Clay, stating, as instructed by his mentors from the Nation of Islam, that Clay was the name given to his slave ancestors by the white man. By refusing to respond to this name, Ali's personal life was filled with controversy. Ali was essentially banned from fighting in the United States and forced to accept bouts abroad for most of 1966.

 

From his rematch with Liston in May 1965, to his final defense against Zora Folley in March 1967, he defended his title nine times, an active schedule for that period. Ali was scheduled to fight WBA champion Ernie Terrell in a unification bout in Toronto on March 29, 1966, but Terrell backed out and Ali won a 15-round decision against substitute opponent George Chuvalo. He then went to England and defeated Henry Cooper and Brian London by stoppage on cuts. Ali's next defense was against German southpaw Karl Mildenberger, the first German to fight for the title since Max Schmeling. In one of the tougher fights of his life, Ali stopped his opponent in round 12.

 

Ali returned to the United States in November 1966 to fight Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams in the Houston Astrodome. A year and a half before the fight, Williams had been shot in the stomach at point-blank range by a Texas policeman. As a result, Williams went into the fight missing one kidney, 10 feet of his small intestine, and with a shriveled left leg from nerve damage from the bullet. Ali beat Williams in three rounds.

 

On February 6, 1967, Ali returned to a Houston boxing ring to fight Terrell in what became one of the uglier fights in boxing. Terrell had angered Ali by calling him Clay, and the champion vowed to punish him for this insult. During the fight, Ali kept shouting at his opponent, "What's my name, Uncle Tom ... What's my name." Terrell suffered 15 rounds of brutal punishment, losing 13 of 15 rounds on two judges' scorecards, but Ali did not knock him out. Analysts, including several who spoke to ESPN on the sports channel's "Ali Rap" special, speculated that the fight only continued because Ali wanted to throroughly punish and humiliate Terrell. After the fight, Tex Maule wrote, "It was a wonderful demonstration of boxing skill and a barbarous display of cruelty."

 

Ali's actions in refusing military service and aligning himself with the Nation of Islam made him a lightning rod for controversy, turning the outspoken but popular former champion into one of that era's most recognizable and controversial figures. Appearing at rallies with Nation of Islam leader Elijah Muhammad and declaring his allegiance to him at a time when mainstream America viewed them with suspicion — if not outright hostility — made Ali a target of outrage, as well as suspicion. Ali seemed at times to even provoke such reactions, with viewpoints that wavered from support for civil rights to outright support of separatism. For example, Ali once stated, in relation to integration:

 

“

We who follow the teachings of Elijah Muhammad don't want to be forced to integrate. Integration is wrong. We don't want to live with the white man; that's all.[3]

”

 

And in relation to inter-racial marriage:

 

“

No intelligent black man or black woman in his or her right black mind wants white boys and white girls coming to their homes to marry their black sons and daughters.[4]

”

 

Indeed, Ali's religious beliefs at the time included the notion that the white man was "the devil", and that white people were not "righteous". Ali claimed that white people hated black people.^[5]

 

Near the end of 1967, Ali was stripped of his title by the professional boxing commission and would not be allowed to fight professionally for more than three years. He was also convicted for refusing induction into the army and sentenced to five years in prison. Over the course of those years in exile, Ali fought to appeal his conviction. He stayed in the public spotlight and supported himself by giving speeches, primarily at rallies on college campuses that opposed the Vietnam War.

 

In 1970, Ali was allowed to fight again. On June 28, 1971 in Clay v. United States the Supreme Court reversed his conviction.

 

 

 

 

Ali

I think there is a little difference between mutual boxing and killing people...

Yes I guess it would make more since to stand in a ring for 15 rounds and beat each other in the head and ribs for prize money....

We who follow the teachings of Elijah Muhammad don't want to be forced to integrate. Integration is wrong. We don't want to live with the white man; that's all.[3]

 

NOW- I just copied the above statement from our tolerant moderator's post ...

NOW IF IT IS WRONG TO INTEGRATE WITH WHITE PEOPLE, and that is what being an American is all about (integrating with different walks of life and people)... AND IF THAT IS WRONG, YOU SHOULD NOT BE HERE!

That was some points I made that was sadly responded to as scary..

 

So now you have it for yourself the quoting of Elijah (I believe was Mohmand/their prophet's son).

 

Now that is what is scary! NOT WHAT I SAID-

 

 

And the inter-racial thing- How would that fly if The Pope came out and made that statement?

How would it go over if he or some religious leader says "You are out of your mind if you let your white sons and daughters marry a black man or woman"?

I think that person would be considered a racist?

 

Ali claimed white people hated black people, well I am sure there are some that did then and do now.

AND vise-versa...

That statement is blown out of proportion, because I for one have many black friends, and I cherish them as much as I cherish my white friends, and I am sure there are many- many other people that feel the same way!

We who follow the teachings of Elijah Muhammad don't want to be forced to integrate. Integration is wrong. We don't want to live with the white man; that's all.[3]

 

NOW- I just copied the above statement from our tolerant moderator's post ...

NOW IF IT IS WRONG TO INTEGRATE WITH WHITE PEOPLE, and that is what being an American is all about (integrating with different walks of life and people)... AND IF THAT IS WRONG, YOU SHOULD NOT BE HERE!

That was some points I made that was sadly responded to as scary..

 

So now you have it for yourself the quoting of Elijah (I believe was Mohmand/their prophet's son).

 

Now that is what is scary! NOT WHAT I SAID-

 

 

And the inter-racial thing- How would that fly if The Pope came out and made that statement?

How would it go over if he or some religious leader says "You are out of your mind if you let your white sons and daughters marry a black man or woman"?

I think that person would be considered a racist?

 

Ali claimed white people hated black people, well I am sure there are some that did then and do now.

AND vise-versa...

That statement is blown out of proportion, because I for one have many black friends, and I cherish them as much as I cherish my white friends, and I am sure there are many- many other people that feel the same way

 

For the record, I simply copied and linked to information regarding Ali. Whether or not I agree with the principles of Islam was not stated, nor implied by me.

 

But, I do have a question....how is the attitude of the Islamic religion toward interracial relationships any different than many people who proclaim to be Christian? If you remember, those most against the Civil Rights Movement and Abolition were also proclaiming their resistance in Biblical passages.

 

I don't agree with many things that are believed by many other religions. I do, however, respect and recognize their rights in America that are guaranteed under the Constitution.