One cannot help but wonder how much dislike of Ali was and is based in racism. With the times he came up and his willingness to speak his mind, a person might think that is the basis for much of it.

 

As for the young men lying in Arlington, especially those of color, I dare say many of them admired Ali for his stand in support of his religious beliefs. Of course there is no way for us to know that now but to assume all think he is trash and a disgrace is presumptuous.

 

That's the whole reason that he got drafted.

My intent wasn't to make this a political or religious debate. At the core, I just want to know what would make some people mention Ali's name in the same breath as Lincoln, Martin Luther King Jr., or John F. Kennedy when speaking about great Americans.

 

John F. Kennedy is the one that I don't get.

You are entitled to your opinion and I agree with you that Clay did not hold the same view as the protestors, in fact I really do not think he had his own view at all. As I said I feel he was being told things by the people involved that I mentioned earlier (Malcom X, Black Panthers etc.) His only agenda IMO was not to go to the military. Malcolm and his homies saw this as an opportunity to be in the spotlight and promote their racist views and the media ran with it just as they are doing today. I guess it is very true that history repeats itself. As for Clay I forgive him for not going to fight for his country but I wll never forget that he was and is a draft dodger.

 

Did you serve your country?

He didn't pass the IQ test to get into the army. How many other celebrities got drafted in the 60's??? However, they took a young successful black man, who scared the establishment to death, and they tried to make an example of him. Say what you want, the US Gov't had it in for him.

 

Not sure about the '60's but Ted Williams and Elvis Presley both served in the '50's near the height of their careers.

It's easy to label someone as a coward for not "going along" with a compulsary draft when we don't live in an age where a draft is in place.

 

It's easy to dismiss someone's character when their beliefs don't fall in line with one's own.

 

What's not easy is to stand up for one's beliefs at the risk of every personal achievement you've attained can and will be stripped from you and people will cast aspersions on your name, your motives and your foever.

 

What's not easy is to rebuild yourself after you've been destroyed.

 

What's not easy is to seek a higher purpose and bring a greater meaning to your world views by using your fame or infamy.

 

It always surprises me that people call him a coward. Are these people anxious to have the draft reinstated? Would those people "toe the line" when the government decides that regardless of your personal beliefs, you will serve?

 

The Ali Center is much, MUCH more than a museum. It's an education center and the site of future initiatives toward world peace.

 

I realize none of the above will explain the "big deal" about Ali, but I hope it at least gives some insight into the man and into the times in which he was most influential.

 

I don't know how I missed this thread all day yesterday, but what an awesome post!

Originally Posted by mexitucky

He didn't pass the IQ test to get into the army. How many other celebrities got drafted in the 60's??? However, they took a young successful black man, who scared the establishment to death, and they tried to make an example of him. Say what you want, the US Gov't had it in for him.

 

Not sure of the timeline in the events but was it the Democrats of JFK and LBJ that had it out for him, the Republicans of Nixon or a mixture of political parties?

Malcolm X had split with the Nation of Islam in 1964. Ali and he didn't really have a relationship after that, and it would have been hard for Malcolm X to be advising Ali to not join the military in 1966 when Malcolm X died a year earlier. And I kind of question your suggestion of ties to the Black Panthers, and would like to see some kind of reference on that.

 

The seed for Ali's decision not to be inducted into the military was planted years before, when he returned home from the Olympics and realized that, gold medals or no, he was still a second-class citizen.

 

Dislike Ali if you will, but at least get the facts straight.

He died as you said but his plans were still being carried on. You can question all you want. Everyone knows what the Black Panther party stood for. I suggest if you want to see some reference look it up. I don't look info up about cowards. I have stated my opinion on what I feel and the discussions I had with some of the soldiers at that time not about what was printed on google.

It was an opinion that was formed during the time when Clay was trying to stay home on the American soil while many in my family were on their way to defend their country. You or anyone else can state your opinion but it will not change mine as I have stated in an earlier post. I do agree with you & Clay on one thing, Clay was surely a second class citizen at that time. If you want to honor Clay as a hero you have that right but your idea and my idea of a hero are different.

He died as you said but his plans were still being carried on. You can question all you want. Everyone knows what the Black Panther party stood for. I suggest if you want to see some reference look it up. I don't look info about cowards. I have stated my opinion about the draft dodger Clay. It was an opinion that was formed during the time when Clay was trying to stay home on the American soil while many in my family were on their way to defend their country. You or anyone else can state your opinion but it will not change mine as I have stated in an earlier post. I do agree with you & Clay on one thing, Clay was surely a second class citizen. If you want to honor Clay as a hero you have that right but your idea and my idea of a hero are different.

Not wanting to pick a fight as I am not necessarily an Ali fan but have questions for you.

 

If a person stands up for America's values, are they a hero?

What if they don't agree with all that America does?

Did you agree with slavery? Would you have considered yourself a second class citizen if you would have disagreed with it and stood against it? Living in the South, would you have agreed to fight on the South's side not believing in slavery? Were all the Confederate soldiers second class citizens because they stood against the US?

What America wanted him to do stood in contrast to his faith, a faith he has stood true to as far as I know, 40 years later. He took a stand against America (as abolotionists did, as women sufferage supporters did, as pro-life supporters do) in favor of his faith. Was he supposed to put his eternal life on the back burner for his country?

Did you serve your country?

I enlisted in the Army during high school but thanks to the brave soldiers that didn't run to Canada, and Richard Nixon who helped bring our troops home I didn't have to go to war as my father and brother did. I failed the physical due to a heart condition and was not allowed to enter the Army. It seems that Clay also had a heart condition but it was a little different from mine.

Since we are on the subject, I'l ask the same question, Did you?

My father was in the army during Vietnam. I think I mentioned on another thread that when he landed at the airport after his second tour of duty (after seeing many of his buddies killed), people would spit on him and shout at him.

 

He and I have discussed Ali. He respects Ali for sticking to his religious principles. He does not respect those celebrities and individuals that protested against the soldiers. Protest the decision to go to war, but not the soldiers who fought.

Not wanting to pick a fight as I am not necessarily an Ali fan but have questions for you.

 

If a person stands up for America's values, are they a hero?

What if they don't agree with all that America does?

Did you agree with slavery? Would you have considered yourself a second class citizen if you would have disagreed with it and stood against it? Living in the South, would you have agreed to fight on the South's side not believing in slavery? Were all the Confederate soldiers second class citizens because they stood against the US?

What America wanted him to do stood in contrast to his faith, a faith he has stood true to as far as I know, 40 years later. He took a stand against America (as abolotionists did, as women sufferage supporters did, as pro-life supporters do) in favor of his faith. Was he supposed to put his eternal life on the back burner for his country?

I understand your questions and know that you are not trying to start an argument. I have posted my feelings about this subject in many other threads & my stance has not changed. I also feel that if you have read any of my other post on BGP you would have the answer's to your questions. I also stated that I don't feel Clay's religious beliefs were the main reasoning behind him not going into the military. I have had my say and stated my opinion. It is ok to agree to disagree.

I understand your questions and know that you are not trying to start an argument. I have posted my feelings about this subject in many other threads & my stance has not changed. I also feel that if you have read any of my other post on BGP you would have the answer's to your questions. I also stated that I don't feel Clay's religious beliefs were the main reasoning behind him not going into the military. I have had my say and stated my opinion. It is ok to agree to disagree.

I can understand how you could feel that way and if that is accurate, I understand your view of him.

 

While I wholeheartedly disagree with him and his faith, I do take him at his word that it was the reason.

 

What has led you to feel that it was not his faith? I was 4 or 5 at the time, so don't have any first hand knowledge of that.

I haven't researched him either, I just find it funny that a boxer that makes a living beating the crap out of people considers himself a pacifist.

I can understand how you could feel that way and if that is accurate, I understand your view of him.

 

While I wholeheartedly disagree with him and his faith, I do take him at his word that it was the reason.

 

What has led you to feel that it was not his faith? I was 4 or 5 at the time, so don't have any first hand knowledge of that.

I just feel that the people that he surrounded himself around were not quality people and ones that were not there for him for his best interest. They are today's version of Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton IMO.

I feel that he was listening to others and basing his decisoins on what they were saying instead of his actual beliefs. I don't know what his intentions were, I can only speculate ( just as everyone has done) from the things I saw and the discussions I had with some of the soldiers that were there. Like I have stated earlier, my stance was not one that evolved yesterday but one that I have felt strongly about for many years. Again, let me say I have forgiven him but will not forget that he refused to fight for his counry. I don't hate Clay ( or anyone) It's not my character, I just don't approve of what he did.

I haven't researched him either, I just find it funny that a boxer that makes a living beating the crap out of people considers himself a pacifist.

 

Boxing and warfare are two very different endeavors. If you cannot see the difference in the two, you need to research both...