What offseason measurements are the best at predicting player success on the football field?

4 hours ago, ChiefSmoke said:

What offseason measurements are the best at predicting player success on the football field?

I don't know if this pertains exactly to your question but I know there is alot of young athletes out there going into their Freshman/Sophomore years that need/want to gain weight/muscle so that they are not getting tossed around by the upperclassmen. @ChiefSmoke What do you think is the best way for them to add weight that is actually beneficial for them? I know hitting the weight room is probably first and foremost but how do you maximize that? I remember back when I was in highschool the way alot of people were doing it was with boat loads of creatine and they found out that wasnt the best way to go about it.

If they want to gain weight then they need to lift. Past that they need an increase in caloric intake. Obviously there are good healthy choices out there but for HS kids just getting them to eat enough is the hard part. The other part is they need sleep. They need at least 8 hours and if they get enough rest their bodies can hit two cycles of testosterone outputs. Which brings up the fact that kids will have a hard time with weight until that testosterone really starts to kick in. 
 

There is nothing wrong with creatine. It’s a heck of a lot safer than a ton of other things kids put into their bodies. Creatine in general is a good supplement to take throughout your life. 
 

As far as the original question goes. For HS players the skinnies I believe time in a 10 yard fly. For the big kids it is probably a 10 yard start. Past HS or higher level HS players I believe it’s flying 10. 

28 minutes ago, Honey Badger said:

I don't know if this pertains exactly to your question but I know there is alot of young athletes out there going into their Freshman/Sophomore years that need/want to gain weight/muscle so that they are not getting tossed around by the upperclassmen. @ChiefSmoke What do you think is the best way for them to add weight that is actually beneficial for them? I know hitting the weight room is probably first and foremost but how do you maximize that? I remember back when I was in highschool the way alot of people were doing it was with boat loads of creatine and they found out that wasnt the best way to go about it.

@barrel had a really good answer to this question. 

 

My question was coming from the perspective of over the decades, guys that had a great bench press didn't mean they were good football players. Squat and Clean guys were more likely to be better football players, but still had guys great in these lifts that struggled on the field. Same with the 40. 

We started following Jim Kielbaso and I THINK he was the guy that we got the static 10 from. And, I did think those top guys generally were better football players. 

The flying ten is part of the Truck Stick / Feed The Cats school of thought. Those numbers are improving for us, but we have had a long way to go in regards to learning to play football. My hope is there is a convergence of football work, S & C training, and Truck Stick numbers that leads to better on field performance, and ultimately success, results... wins/championships. 

21 minutes ago, barrel said:

There is nothing wrong with creatine. It’s a heck of a lot safer than a ton of other things kids put into their bodies. Creatine in general is a good supplement to take throughout your life. 

As well with anything I guess there is good ways and bad ways to use or abuse stuff. I worded my quote wrong I do not think creatine is a bad supplement. They way I watched people do it they thought they found a cheat code and thought all they needed was creatine without putting in the extra work. Creatine breakfast, lunch and dinner. Little lifting. Gained tons of weight but were tearing their bodies apart because they weren't able to carry the weight as they should. 

Creatine causes water weight. So if they were over using then they are just packing on water. Anything in the right dose is poison and nothing is poison until the right dose. That’s a quote from someone but I don’t remember who. 
 

As increase in speed and measurables I believe there are a few different things. You can get great results with HS kids doing really simple things consistently. Jim Wendler has some great stuff when it comes to strength training. There are a number of videos on YouTube of him talking about how he trains the football at London OH. Also his overall general philosophy is really good and is easy to apply to HS athletes. Where HS kids (and some coaches) screw up is chasing numbers and maxes. You aren’t training power lifters. You are lifting weights to get larger, more explosive and prevent injury. These things have much less to do with how much weight is on a bar and more to do with bar speed. Size will naturally happen. Size will help prevent injuries. Overall programming will help with obtaining all of your goals. 
 

Speed wise even if you don’t completely buy into the Feed the Cats way of thinking for football practice for speed it is one of the best. Dale Baskett (sp?) is another one that is football specific that gets good results. If you want your kids to get faster then learn how to teach and train running form. Get some type of timing system (even if it’s stop watches) and have everyone run three times 40s two times a week. Make sure they get full rest (3-5 minutes) between sprints. Recording, track and publish the times. Your kids will get faster.  
 

Then you’ve got the conditioning portion which has to do with the energy system you use in football. Max effort for short bursts with rest. There are a number of ways to build up your cardiovascular level without sprints. The pace of the weight room. Battle ropes. Small games of different types. 
 

Then you get into change of direction. Most teams use static COD things. That helps but it also gets you good at running around cones. This is one area Dale Muller was way ahead of his time with. Those HHS teams played all kids of different versions of tag. It taught kids change of direction but also about space. Change of direction needs a response and then move into larger spaces and with variety in player numbers. 
 

One of the underlying principles of both Wendler and Holler is to not beat your kids up. Today’s workout should not hurt tomorrow’s performance. Kids shouldn’t feel worn out after running or lifting. They should feel like they still have stuff left in the tank. 

3 minutes ago, barrel said:

Creatine causes water weight. So if they were over using then they are just packing on water. Anything in the right dose is poison and nothing is poison until the right dose. That’s a quote from someone but I don’t remember who. 
 

As increase in speed and measurables I believe there are a few different things. You can get great results with HS kids doing really simple things consistently. Jim Wendler has some great stuff when it comes to strength training. There are a number of videos on YouTube of him talking about how he trains the football at London OH. Also his overall general philosophy is really good and is easy to apply to HS athletes. Where HS kids (and some coaches) screw up is chasing numbers and maxes. You aren’t training power lifters. You are lifting weights to get larger, more explosive and prevent injury. These things have much less to do with how much weight is on a bar and more to do with bar speed. Size will naturally happen. Size will help prevent injuries. Overall programming will help with obtaining all of your goals. 
 

Speed wise even if you don’t completely buy into the Feed the Cats way of thinking for football practice for speed it is one of the best. Dale Baskett (sp?) is another one that is football specific that gets good results. If you want your kids to get faster then learn how to teach and train running form. Get some type of timing system (even if it’s stop watches) and have everyone run three times 40s two times a week. Make sure they get full rest (3-5 minutes) between sprints. Recording, track and publish the times. Your kids will get faster.  
 

Then you’ve got the conditioning portion which has to do with the energy system you use in football. Max effort for short bursts with rest. There are a number of ways to build up your cardiovascular level without sprints. The pace of the weight room. Battle ropes. Small games of different types. 
 

Then you get into change of direction. Most teams use static COD things. That helps but it also gets you good at running around cones. This is one area Dale Muller was way ahead of his time with. Those HHS teams played all kids of different versions of tag. It taught kids change of direction but also about space. Change of direction needs a response and then move into larger spaces and with variety in player numbers. 
 

One of the underlying principles of both Wendler and Holler is to not beat your kids up. Today’s workout should not hurt tomorrow’s performance. Kids shouldn’t feel worn out after running or lifting. They should feel like they still have stuff left in the tank. 

Jim Wendler should run the world.

@Honey Badger, I can’t add anything that @barrel hasn’t already said, except that I’m biased towards Wendler’s methods not just for how his approach is for young athletes, but also in my personal training & have been for many, many years (I’m not a personal trainer, I meant that as in for my own self).

Feed The Cats approach towards speed and performance is very good, too.

Some programs across the state use Wendler’s stuff, some don’t.  I’ll be honest…some don’t because it’s not flashy enough and/or don’t think they are doing “enough”.   Which, whatever.….probably has something to do with the fact that he isn’t one of these, as he has quoted himself saying, “You’re going to die if you don’t power clean!” types.

He’s a HUGE believer in starting “too light” (in terms of training maxes %’s used, progressing slow, bar speed/controlling the weight, technique perfectionist & isn’t a big 1 Rep Max guy when it comes to training, but especially not for HS athletes. They 1RM, but it’s rare.)

(the HS football program he coaches at now- handles their S&C- they don’t power clean.  He’s had some of their more advanced kids over the years do it, but it’s not remotely a staple in his variations for building power/explosiveness.  Wendler & his methods are largely influenced from the late Louie Simmons/Westside Barbell, and that tree)

I have never heard of these terms. Can some one please explain? I love all this stuff by the way.

2 hours ago, Breds82 said:

I have never heard of these terms. Can some one please explain? I love all this stuff by the way.

Flying 10... 10 meters where you have a running start and measure how fast you can cover that ground. Fast guys will be 1.0 to 1.1. I think we had a guy break 1.0, once.

 

Static 10... 10 yard dash.... just like a 40 yard dash. 

 

I asked the question and we are using a Flying 10 because it fits w/ our Truck Stick program. But, we started measuring a static 10 at Mason County around 2005 and liked the demands for acceleration. 

Asked this question to Dr. Matt Rhea on LinkedIn & got this response. He was the S & C Coach for Saban. They were very good that year at Alabama and his ability to reduce injuries was a big reason why that was the case.

The speed portion from Holler’s perspective works like this. If a guy can run 20 MPH then running 18 isn’t taxing.  If you run 18 and run at 17 you will become fatigued faster. So the idea is the more guys you have with top end speed the less fatigued they become through the game and the more fatigued the opponent does. 

3 hours ago, barrel said:

The speed portion from Holler’s perspective works like this. If a guy can run 20 MPH then running 18 isn’t taxing.  If you run 18 and run at 17 you will become fatigued faster. So the idea is the more guys you have with top end speed the less fatigued they become through the game and the more fatigued the opponent does. 

One of the problems with the really elite sprinters is that they typically don't have good endurance.  They're just wired differently.  For a sport like football it's good to have some guys who are fast but maybe not elite who can sustain that effort over the course of the game.  Obviously, the more of them you have the better.  

I think static start is better because that mimics acceleration after the ball has been snapped. The fly is good to measure top speed. 

Flying 10 is absolutely useless in my opinion.  Football is about acceleration from a static stop.  This isn't Canadian football where you get that running forward motion at the snap of the ball.  You should also incorporate ways of changing directions, someone mentioned Dale Mueller and tag and they were spot on.  I've always been a fan of gasses or versions of them, start and stop sprints with change of direction.  

One thing I also disagree on here is after a training session, kids should absolutely be spent.  They shouldn't have anything left in the tank.  When they have leftover energy in the tank, they don't understand how to give max effort during the games and are always in energy conservation mode.  This leads to a host of issues. 

Now, there's no absolute best way of doing things.   If there was, everyone would do it the same way.  But as high school kids continue to get way stronger and way faster, strength and conditioning needs to be priority number 1 for every single program.   And if your kids are getting beat physically, it's time to completely redo your off-season program.

Here is the problem with doing workouts where the kids are “spent” or they don’t have anything left in the tank. It fries the central nervous system which can take days to recover. On the outside they might appear fine but that central nervous system is still in recovery. That can and often does lead to injuries. Often in workouts were you really try to tax the players they figure it out and learn to pace themselves no matter how hard they are pushed. 
 

I don’t know a lot but I know enough to say I don’t know more than Jim Wendler. Things can be difficult or challenging without beating the kids up. Holler uses X-factor workouts which are lactic acid workouts. Things like the 20 second sprint. 
 

The average play in football is between 3-5 seconds with around a 30 second rest at a minimum. The average drive is around 6 plays or so.  Train for what you do in the sport. Muller did do a few things to wear the kids out or “hard” things but it was few and far between. Honestly he did some stuff even today people would think was really strange but had a strong base to them. Things that increased special awareness and body control. 

2 hours ago, barrel said:

Here is the problem with doing workouts where the kids are “spent” or they don’t have anything left in the tank. It fries the central nervous system which can take days to recover. On the outside they might appear fine but that central nervous system is still in recovery. That can and often does lead to injuries. Often in workouts were you really try to tax the players they figure it out and learn to pace themselves no matter how hard they are pushed. 
 

I don’t know a lot but I know enough to say I don’t know more than Jim Wendler. Things can be difficult or challenging without beating the kids up. Holler uses X-factor workouts which are lactic acid workouts. Things like the 20 second sprint. 
 

The average play in football is between 3-5 seconds with around a 30 second rest at a minimum. The average drive is around 6 plays or so.  Train for what you do in the sport. Muller did do a few things to wear the kids out or “hard” things but it was few and far between. Honestly he did some stuff even today people would think was really strange but had a strong base to them. Things that increased special awareness and body control. 

Not only that, but constant physical stress also affects teams mentally in terms of being able to learn, retain, and assess information. You also reach a point of diminishing returns, especially as the season wears on. Rest and recovery are just as important and are required in order to grow physically.