:thumb: :thumb: This was my feelings on it, imo the ref "fumbled" the call he should had made.

The line judge or linesman have to mark forward progress. If it is a goal line stand with a bunch of bodies, you never, never, never blow the whistle until you see the ball. The referee behind the play shouldn't blow it because he doesn't know the postion of the ball. Case in point. Referee blows whistle first-pile falls forward into end zone, linesman signals touchdown. Inadvertant whistle. That's a mess. You wait wait wait until you see the ball. Linesman will sometimes get a yes from an umpire ( behind the defense) that a TD was scored.

Another similar play. USC vs ND last year at South Bend. Take away the Reggie Bush shove but at what point does the side official blow the whistle? After Leinart gets stopped the first time? The pile fell into the end zone. The referees have to wait those goal line situations out. I didn't see the play with Russell and Mercer but I stand behind my striped brethren.

 

Bottom line- a loose ball in the end zone was not recovered by the defense.

Offensive player in possession of the ball beyond the goal line-Touchdown in high school. Spot of fumble- first down defense in college and pro. ( Not 100 % sure on pro>)

UKCatsfan has the key word here, (whistle). The forward motion was stopped but for whatever reason the ref did not blow the play dead, therefore it is a live ball. You are always taught everyday in practice to play until the whistle. It was really a heads up play by the kid that recovered the ball. Any time there is a loose ball you should make every effort to recover it and then see what call the ref will make. The ref was clearly wrong in not blowing the play dead but the defense is also at fault for not playing until they hear a whistle.

Did the officials hold a conference to discuss the call or did they just stand by the call that was made?

^ Actually in the pros and college, only the "fumbler" can recover the ball, if it is fourth down. That was the case in this game. If it were college, it would've been a touchback.

Sorry RP, not correct on this one. In college if it happened, the "fourth down fumble rule" as officials refer to it would mean that it comes back to Mercer County's point that they fumbled, and is now Russell's ball. The only person that recover a fourth down fumble in college and it not be returned to the spot is the fumbler. Russell doesn't get the benefit of the touchback.

 

Apparently no old foagies (sp) on here, I haven't seen Dave Casper's name mentioned (who was the reason for the pro and college change for a play he made with the Oakland Raiders years ago in the playoffs) or at least I just missed seeing it.

The line judge or linesman have to mark forward progress. If it is a goal line stand with a bunch of bodies, you never, never, never blow the whistle until you see the ball. The referee behind the play shouldn't blow it because he doesn't know the postion of the ball. Case in point. Referee blows whistle first-pile falls forward into end zone, linesman signals touchdown. Inadvertant whistle. That's a mess. You wait wait wait until you see the ball. Linesman will sometimes get a yes from an umpire ( behind the defense) that a TD was scored.

Another similar play. USC vs ND last year at South Bend. Take away the Reggie Bush shove but at what point does the side official blow the whistle? After Leinart gets stopped the first time? The pile fell into the end zone. The referees have to wait those goal line situations out. I didn't see the play with Russell and Mercer but I stand behind my striped brethren.

 

Bottom line- a loose ball in the end zone was not recovered by the defense.

Offensive player in possession of the ball beyond the goal line-Touchdown in high school. Spot of fumble- first down defense in college and pro. ( Not 100 % sure on pro>)

:thumb: :thumb: Let me preface my comments by saying that I have no prior knowledge of the incident in question. I do know a few things though. First, high school officiating associations are constantly looking for good officials, by all means get out and improve the quality of officiating in our state. Second, these guys are human. They make mistakes. I'm not saying this was one(I actually don't think it is based on what I've heard), but if it was, it happens. They make 60 bucks a game. If you feel you can do better, by all means, please do. Third, the worst thing in the world in any sport for an official to do is to "kill" a play before it's over. As stated by JimmyRef, you wait, wait, and wait some more in a situation like this to be sure. I personally don't like the H.S. rule regarding 4th down fumbling, but it is what it is. One call does not win or lose a game.

UKCatsfan has the key word here, (whistle). The forward motion was stopped but for whatever reason the ref did not blow the play dead, therefore it is a live ball. You are always taught everyday in practice to play until the whistle. It was really a heads up play by the kid that recovered the ball. Any time there is a loose ball you should make every effort to recover it and then see what call the ref will make. The ref was clearly wrong in not blowing the play dead but the defense is also at fault for not playing until they hear a whistle.

Did the officials hold a conference to discuss the call or did they just stand by the call that was made?

Not seeing the play, I really can't comment on right or wrong but never in the 13 years on the field as an official did we convene to discuss a whistle that was not blown or a flag that was not thrown, or a touchdown that was not scored.

never in the 13 years on the field as an official did we convene to discuss a whistle that was not blown or a flag that was not thrown, or a touchdown that was not scored.

But I bet there is an official somewhere who has!!

My question was more centered on the ruling than on a no call.

I'll cut you some slack here. Anyone that has my former offensive coordinator at Miami University as his avatar is allright by me. BTW, I am talking about Tressel not Hayes. Are you going to Glendale to watch them beat the Gators? I went to Tempe to see them beat Miami,

Quarterback realizes he's not going to make it.

 

He reaches out with the ball to try and stick it over the goal line.

 

Russell players swats ball out of QBs hand.

 

Ref sees that ball is loose, no longer cares about QBs progress.

 

They wait to see who recovers the fumble.

 

Award Mercer a TD when they see who recovered and where it was recovered.

 

No intentional grounding, no illeagal forward pass. It was a smart play by the QB to try and stick it across the goal line, and it was a smart play by the Russell defender to swat the ball. Mercer was fortunate enough to fall on it.

 

 

But his forward progress was stopped for a good while before the ball came loose. That should have been the end of the play. Try looking at this play from a view other than that of a Mercer fan. Or imagine if Mercer was on the other end of the result.

The line judge or linesman have to mark forward progress. If it is a goal line stand with a bunch of bodies, you never, never, never blow the whistle until you see the ball. The referee behind the play shouldn't blow it because he doesn't know the postion of the ball. Case in point. Referee blows whistle first-pile falls forward into end zone, linesman signals touchdown. Inadvertant whistle. That's a mess. You wait wait wait until you see the ball. Linesman will sometimes get a yes from an umpire ( behind the defense) that a TD was scored.

Another similar play. USC vs ND last year at South Bend. Take away the Reggie Bush shove but at what point does the side official blow the whistle? After Leinart gets stopped the first time? The pile fell into the end zone. The referees have to wait those goal line situations out. I didn't see the play with Russell and Mercer but I stand behind my striped brethren.

 

Bottom line- a loose ball in the end zone was not recovered by the defense.

Offensive player in possession of the ball beyond the goal line-Touchdown in high school. Spot of fumble- first down defense in college and pro. ( Not 100 % sure on pro>)

 

 

I disagree about the referee never blowing his whistle. In a case like this I think he's the only one who could since he had a perfect view. But besides that, let me ask you this: Do you feel the Bush shove should have been called for aiding the runner? And another thing is the pile never fell into the endzone like Lienard's did, and Mercer's QB was stopped for 8 seconds and Leinard was only stopped momentarily. I know you know officiating, as I feel I do as well, and I also feel if you'd seen this play live you may have a different opinion. As much as I like to think we officials are always right, it's niave to think so. That's why we continue to try and get better. The bottom line is the play should have been blown dead.

I have to go officiate a game, I'll be back later.

What down was it?

I'll cut you some slack here. Anyone that has my former offensive coordinator at Miami University as his avatar is allright by me. BTW, I am talking about Tressel not Hayes. Are you going to Glendale to watch them beat the Gators? I went to Tempe to see them beat Miami,

Unable to make the trip but I hope you are correct about beating the gators.

Several have correctly pointed out that the high school rule is different than the other levels of football.

 

Personally I like the rule the way it is for high school. As long as it isn't determined that it was a intentional forward fumble (illegal pass), then I see no reason why the team advancing the ball shouldn't be able to recover their own fumble, even if it is 4th down.

 

On the play in question, I was shocked that the runner wasn't blown down based on the stopping of his forward progress. His progress was completely stopped behind the goal line for a good several seconds and then the fumble and recovery. I haven't seen the replay, but in person, it certainly looked like his progress was stopped but in fairness I didn't see the ball pop out and it could have happened sooner than I thought.

 

I believe the high school rule should be changed to mirror the Pro Dave Casper rule for the very reason that rule was put in place. It takes the judgement out of the play for the referees. It is nearly impossible to tell if I am trying to recover a fumble at the one yard line and I just can't come up with it and it happens to go in the endzone.............or did I kind of help it go in the endzone where it could be recovered for a TD?

 

In so far as the whistle not blowing................I was kind of shocked at how long it was taking for the refs to blow the whistle in the Class A game. It was the same for both sides but I heard many comments that some player was going to get hurt because they were clearly stopped and they just would not blow the whistle until 6 or 7 guys would throw the ball carrier down.

 

I did not notice that at all in the Class AAA or Class AAAA I watched on TV.

What down was it?

 

 

4th down

I believe the high school rule should be changed to mirror the Pro Dave Casper rule for the very reason that rule was put in place. It takes the judgement out of the play for the referees. It is nearly impossible to tell if I am trying to recover a fumble at the one yard line and I just can't come up with it and it happens to go in the endzone.............or did I kind of help it go in the endzone where it could be recovered for a TD?

 

In so far as the whistle not blowing................I was kind of shocked at how long it was taking for the refs to blow the whistle in the Class A game. It was the same for both sides but I heard many comments that some player was going to get hurt because they were clearly stopped and they just would not blow the whistle until 6 or 7 guys would throw the ball carrier down.

 

I did not notice that at all in the Class AAA or Class AAAA I watched on TV.

It was the same way in the AA game. Those guys didn't want to blow a whistle at all.

The line judge or linesman have to mark forward progress. If it is a goal line stand with a bunch of bodies, you never, never, never blow the whistle until you see the ball. The referee behind the play shouldn't blow it because he doesn't know the postion of the ball. Case in point. Referee blows whistle first-pile falls forward into end zone, linesman signals touchdown. Inadvertant whistle. That's a mess. You wait wait wait until you see the ball. Linesman will sometimes get a yes from an umpire ( behind the defense) that a TD was scored.

Another similar play. USC vs ND last year at South Bend. Take away the Reggie Bush shove but at what point does the side official blow the whistle? After Leinart gets stopped the first time? The pile fell into the end zone. The referees have to wait those goal line situations out. I didn't see the play with Russell and Mercer but I stand behind my striped brethren.

 

Bottom line- a loose ball in the end zone was not recovered by the defense.

Offensive player in possession of the ball beyond the goal line-Touchdown in high school. Spot of fumble- first down defense in college and pro. ( Not 100 % sure on pro>)

 

 

If the referee blows his whistle because he sees his forward progress stopped and then the pile falls into the endzone, you don't have an inadvertant whistle. You have a dead ball abd the following play will start from that spot. I don't mean to be argumentative at all, it's just I'm trying to prove a point about the play. That's all. I completely understand sticking with your striped companions because it seems as though I'm always doing the same when I can but I also know we are not always correct. WE strive to be but we're human. It's the only job where you are expected to be perfect the first day and improve everyday after. But it's just not realistic. There is a great article in the Dec issue of referee magazine about this criteria.