It is impossible for man or demon to foul God with sin. Simply put, sin cannot exist in His presence. The holiness of God will absolutely consume sin every single time.

 

To pull one part of your post out and referencing it, please explain the story of Job then when the Devil was in the presence of God.

 

Plus, if God cannot be around sin, are you not placing limitations on God and now he is not omnipotent or omnipresence. Because I am sinning, God cannot be in my presence?

 

I have posed this question many times to people who have quoted such and never really had a good answer. I EAGERLY await your answer. Cuz, I hold your view in high regards.

Nothing personal taken nor intended… :thumb:

 

I’m from Eastern Kentucky and sound like it. I’m certainly not looking down my nose at people with thick dialects… ‘coz I be one… :lol:

 

I figure God knows a whole lot more than I do. He chose where I’d grow up. I know firsthand how absurd it is to attempt to assess intelligence based solely upon one’s dialect, that’s why I can laugh about it. I travel a lot in my work, and have found laughter to be beneficial. IMO a good sense of humor is a much better indicator of intelligence than one’s dialect.

 

To tie this into the current thread topic, and 5wide’s observation, it is foolish to evaluate anyone solely upon outward appearances.

 

It is impossible for man or demon to foul God with sin. Simply put, sin cannot exist in His presence. The holiness of God will absolutely consume sin every single time.

 

We’re told, in Romans 3:23 “…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” The foundational message throughout the entire Bible is the fact that God loves us and wants us to be in His presence so much that He sent His only Son to provide a payment for our sins… to provide restitution for our sin and a doorway into His holiness.

 

To all observers, Uzzah must have looked pretty regal leading the Ark with his brother Ahio… but clearly, God knew his heart. Regardless of his good intentions, Uzzah’s body died because he attempted to touch God’s presence with sin in his heart.

 

Similarly, a man can dress simply, talk like a hillbilly and have an IQ over 170.

 

Don’t judge by appearances.

 

How’s that for diverting a thread jacking? :lol:

Well said my friend...:thumb:

 

Can someone translate this for me, I don't speak EKY. :D :D

 

BTW, my family is from Sassafrass Hollow right outside of Hazard. The type that the road used to be the bed of the creek running through the Holler.

Oh My....:lol:

God allowed Satan to deal with Job. He knew Job's true heart. This also is a great story where you read about God inter-acting with the deciever. People at my Church asked..."Here is a man willing to travel with the Ark and could have been with his family, and the Ark being carried the wrong way and he is trying to protect it". The Ark had been in his family for 20 years and he never touched it. One idea is he thought he appropriated to himself the power which belonged to a higher person. The whole deal was wrong as mentioned earlier. The Ark should have been covered too. Does God discipline us today? I think so.

Last sunday nite I went into a Bible Study class. I had my cell with me. It was turned off. I use it for my work and need it close by. During the study I changed the format that was lead by the teacher. I did it on purpose because I didn't agree with the material. Everyone was OK with what I did, but later leaving church I couldn't find my cell phone. Its been over nine days and its still missing. Next time in church I'm letting the teacher do his thing. But God didn't "Smite" me.

God allowed Satan to deal with Job. He knew Job's true heart. This also is a great story where you read about God inter-acting with the deciever. People at my Church asked..."Here is a man willing to travel with the Ark and could have been with his family, and the Ark being carried the wrong way and he is trying to protect it". The Ark had been in his family for 20 years and he never touched it. One idea is he thought he appropriated to himself the power which belonged to a higher person. The whole deal was wrong as mentioned earlier. The Ark should have been covered too. Does God discipline us today? I think so.

Last sunday nite I went into a Bible Study class. I had my cell with me. It was turned off. I use it for my work and need it close by. During the study I changed the format that was lead by the teacher. I did it on purpose because I didn't agree with the material. Everyone was OK with what I did, but later leaving church I couldn't find my cell phone. Its been over nine days and its still missing. Next time in church I'm letting the teacher do his thing. But God didn't "Smite" me.

On the Job issue, if you hold the position that God cannot be in the presence of sin how do you explain Satan being their in the mornings as God talked to the angels.

 

Earlier on, God wrestled with Jacob, I believe. Unless Jacob was a perfect person, God was wrestling with a person that had sinned.

Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner LBBC, I had a full evening, and have been busy today too, (...darned work anyhow... :irked: )

 

I’m flattered by your kind words, and appreciate the spirit of your challenge. I’m not going to pretend to know all the answers, but we both know Who does. We’re on this path together, and if we may proceed as brothers on this quest, I’m certain we’ll discover the answers we seek… :thumb:

 

On the surface your questions seem simple, and perhaps they are to one more learned. For me however, serious contemplation has led to several pages of Bible quotations. I could post them all here, but I’m going to attempt to summarize.

 

First of all, allow me to assure you I am not one to place limitations upon God... at least not intentionally. I was raised in a denomination that did (and does), but I do not feel that is wise, nor accurate in the full light of scripture.

 

To be absolutely clear, I never said “God cannot be around sin” I said, “…sin cannot exist in God’s presence.” Similar sounding words… very different meanings.

 

To clarify this, I will amend it to state, “…sin cannot exist (for very long) in God’s (full) presence.”

 

As much as I want to simplify, this is going to take some space and time… please bear with me. :thumb:

Your questions IMO are best understood in degrees.

 

We are told that there is but one God, but that He has three distinct but equal personalities… the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is a great mystery, but when considered in the light of what we already understand, it becomes not only more comprehensible, but actually very logical.

 

We (humans) consist of three distinct elements; a physical body, an intellect/personality and a spirit. Body, soul and spirit… and yet we are one being. Our physical body can be killed, but we are assured that our soul and spirit live on. We are further promised that we will have a new “eternal” body to contain our soul and spirit when we depart from this earth. We will in essence consist of three distinct parts forever. In a similar sense, Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up the Being of God.

 

Read in context, the entire Bible points to a singular personality, the Messiah… Jesus Christ. John 1:1 tells us, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.” I love this passage because it tells us in crystal clear terms who Jesus is: Jesus is eternal, and of the same fundamental nature of God. He was not created. He was in fact the Creator. He possesses the very essence of life and wisdom for all mankind.

 

When all is said and done, the single greatest point of impact for each of us will be the physical birth, life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and where we stand with Him… all else will be insignificant.

 

As A.D. believers we are spoiled to some extent, in that we have a direct line of access via the Holy Spirit that those on the B.C. side of time did not enjoy. We are taught in Sunday School that God lives in us, that we are God’s temple. This is true for those who truly believe and have made Jesus their Lord. However, it was not always so. It must be noted that prior to Jesus, there existed a distinct separation between God and man. Only the sacrifice of Jesus was able to bridge the gap of sin separating God and man.

 

Prior to Jesus Christ, God spoke to humans, but in regard to God physically dwelling among His people, we are taught that He inhabited the tabernacle He instructed Moses to construct, (and later the temple built by the kings of Israel.) It consisted of three distinct areas; the court, the holy place and the holy of holies. Each was separated by heavy curtains, and entered by a single door. The people were permitted to enter the court (Exodus 40:28,29; Leviticus 1:1-3 Psalms 5:7; Psalms 84:2,10; Psalms 100:4), but they were excluded from the tabernacle on penalty of death (Numbers 1:51). The priests, Aaron's sons, were permitted to enter the holy place (Leviticus 1:1-17; Hebrews 9:6), but only the high priest was permitted to enter the holy of holies where the Ark of the Covenant rested. This was an annual event (Leviticus 16:1-34; Hebrews 9:7) and only after following very strict guidelines for purification. Among these orders, Aaron, the first high priest was instructed by God (Leviticus 10:9) "You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die."

 

I don’t pretend to fully understand the whys of all this, but it is very clear that the holiness of God is not something to be taken lightly. It is clear that in each of the three areas of the tabernacle/temple people accessed the “presence of God.” It is also clear that only the holiest/purest individuals were granted access to the inner sanctum, the place where God’s holiness burned the brightest… and even then with severe restrictions.

 

It is this “holy” aspect of God I referenced in the story of Uzzah. Clearly Uzzah did not fully consider his actions in light of God’s clear instructions.

 

I fully believe that God our Father wants to hold each of us closely and deeply. He does not wish to be separated from us, but as a loving Father, He also desires us no harm. He is aware, (even if we are not) that His holiness would overwhelm us unless we are made clean. By His grace, He has provided the Way. It’s up to us to be obedient and accept, or to be foolish and resist.

 

Jesus said, (John 14:6-11) "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.”

 

Jesus has made God real and accessible to all of us. He has provided us a door by which we may enter the holy place of God. (John 10:1-18) John 10:9 “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” Even so, we would be as foolish as Uzzah to underestimate the holiness of God.

:thumb: ^

 

I agree. God has the ability to "shield" His full glory from us. Like when He allowed Moses to see His back, saying no man could look upon Him and live.

 

Just like us, now, as followers of Christ. There are times when I can really sense and feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, and other times I can't. I think that is God's ability to "hide" or "mask" Himself. That may not be the best way to explain it, but I know that His Spirit is always in us, so how else can we account for being able to feel it much stronger at some times than others?

In regard to your question of Satan in Job, “Please explain the story of Job then when the Devil was in the presence of God.”

 

As I understand it, your intent is to understand how I could explain how the father of sin, could survive the presence of God, if indeed sin (as I had stated) could not stand in God’s presence.

 

A very good question… but a question based on an incomplete statement on my part… I apologize for my haste.

 

Yes, God as an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, benevolent being is fully capable of being everywhere all of the time… but does that necessarily mean that He’s everywhere at full strength, in His full person at all times? There are many examples throughout the Bible that lead me to believe not.

 

I have attempted to clarify my meaning which is in a nutshell: “There are varying degrees of the presence of God, and there are places where God’s presence is more concentrated than others.”

 

In the story of the tabernacle/temple I attempted to outline the fact that virtually everyone was permitted access into the presence and forgiveness of God, but there were strict restrictions upon how they were permitted to go about this. The outer court was for those seeking God’s forgiveness, but they were forbidden (under penalty of death) from entering the holy place. Priests were permitted to enter the holy place, but forbidden (under penalty of death) from entering the holy of holies. Only the high priest was permitted to enter this innermost sanctum of God’s presence, and even then with severe restrictions upon his preparations.

 

To summarize, everyone had access to the presence and forgiveness of God, but only the High Priest was permitted to enter into God’s most direct presence.

 

I do not see the threat of death implied here as a punishment from God, but a loving warning from a benevolent Father that we’re not as clean as we might like to think that we are, and that without the proper preparation and cleansing, our bodies cannot withstand the pure holiness of our mighty God.

 

Nowhere in the story of Job are we told that the devil entered into the innermost presence of God, but merely, (Job 1:6) “One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.” If God is omnipresent as I believe He is, this could have happened anywhere, and at virtually any distance from the innermost throne of God.

 

This reads as I might imagine a CEO meeting with his corporate officers. I’ve taken part in many of these types of meetings, but I have never had such a meeting (thankfully) in a CEO’s bedroom. In a similar sense, I have no doubt that God graced the Angels and Satan with his presence. I simply do not believe that this story indicates that it occurred within the inner throne room of God. If I am wrong here, please do not hesitate to correct me.

 

We are also told that for whatever reason, God has granted Satan limited license to go about doing whatever he must do. This license is soon to be revoked, but until then God in His wisdom is withholding His judgment. I for one do not want to enter eternity stained with sin. My only hope is in Jesus Christ.

I thought this thread said the Son of Uzzah. I'd never heard that Uzzah had a son. I was thinking maybe his name was Fuzzah.

 

Boy was I surprised. :eek:

Fuzzah Uzzah touched the ark

Fuzzah Uzzah missed the mark

Fuzzah Uzzah wasn't Fuzzah, Uzzah?

Amazing what one little letter can do. SIN SON. FastBreak, Wow What is your background? How long did you work with Billy Graham? Or long did he work for you?

FastBreak, Wow What is your background? How long did you work with Billy Graham? Or long did he work for you?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Nah... even in is 80's old Billy can get to the point quicker than I can... :lol:

 

Fletch, that's some funny stuff... :thumb:

Is it possible that the story is simply a truth myth? That there is a greater point to the story and that it was passed on so people could understand that greater point, but that the "facts" are not exactly the facts?

 

Just asking.

Good question. Hard to say but there were people who were there. Josephus wrote about it. The Ark was a Holy object, representing the presence of God himself so it had strict regulations, and Uzza touched it and made God angry. There was a place there named Perez Uzza which means "Outburst Against Uzza" this area would remind people of what happened to Uzza.

Good question. Hard to say but there were people who were there. Josephus wrote about it. The Ark was a Holy object, representing the presence of God himself so it had strict regulations, and Uzza touched it and made God angry. There was a place there named Perez Uzza which means "Outburst Against Uzza" this area would remind people of what happened to Uzza.

 

 

Wasn't sure if you were saying:

 

People witnessed it and talked about.

 

Josephus was there.

 

Josephus couldn't have been there because of the time frame he lived (Somewhere from around 37 AD to 100 AD).