If we as a state stop building new schools & start expanding existing schools, are we even having this discussion? cuts both ways...

 

Perhaps this is true, but more accurately if a public school could have a male enrollment population of 1100-1200 to match X & T it might not be relevant either. However an all male public school couldn’t happen, so the overall school population would likely have to be in the 2500 student range to reach that level of male population. Then from a financial standpoint the schools monetary resources would be significantly more spread out than the 1200 student sized all male population school.

Perhaps this is true, but more accurately if a public school could have a male enrollment population of 1100-1200 to match X & T it might not be relevant either. However an all male public school couldn’t happen, so the overall school population would likely have to be in the 2500 student range to reach that level of male population. Then from a financial standpoint the schools monetary resources would be significantly more spread out than the 1200 student sized all male population school.

 

FWIW, both Henry Clay and Scott County had more boys in their schools in 2016-17 than did Trinity. Paul Dunbar had 27 fewer boys than Trinity. Obviously Henry Clay and Dunbar's numbers likely are adjusted this year due to the opening of Frederick Douglass.

 

http://khsaa.org/reports/enrollments/20162017schoolenrollmenttotalsbyenroll.pdf

 

Scott County is showing that with a sizable population a large school can at least sniff at the success of Trinity and St. X. It would be interesting to see what Boone County would look like if there was no Ryle or Cooper. I'm not sure if any other school (or would-be school pre-consolidation) would even still have the numbers to compete.

FWIW, both Henry Clay and Scott County had more boys in their schools in 2016-17 than did Trinity. Paul Dunbar had 27 fewer boys than Trinity. Obviously Henry Clay and Dunbar's numbers likely are adjusted this year due to the opening of Frederick Douglass.

 

http://khsaa.org/reports/enrollments/20162017schoolenrollmenttotalsbyenroll.pdf

 

Scott County is showing that with a sizable population a large school can at least sniff at the success of Trinity and St. X. It would be interesting to see what Boone County would look like if there was no Ryle or Cooper. I'm not sure if any other school (or would-be school pre-consolidation) would even still have the numbers to compete.

Yes, & that’s why the financial impact of support has to be considered. Particularly for Football, which there is cost involved.

Look at what Scott County has put into Athletics at their one HS in recent years. 2 turf practice fields on campus. An amazing weight room/field house building, etc etc. Will be interesting to see how new HS impacts that long term.

As for Lex, FDHS is getting a lot now because leaders are striking while funding is available to the new school using those resources. 3 years from now will they still be able to put money toward that school the way they are now? Time will tell but the larger the public district the more the “if we do for one we must do for the other” mentality becomes an issue.

As for Boone County, take a look at the level of success before the opening of the other schools until now....

This is where T & X truly have an advantage. They can support Football specifically at a higher level than a public school can. Which is a reason why people are attracted to them in a sense. This same thing would be true if we were talking about a great Biology Department, or Foriegn Language Studies or Club Sports or whatever a particular Private school might want to really support in a serious way. A private school can and will be run in a different way than a public school. It is the very reason why some people desire to send their child to private schools, No?

Here is a listing of all the state finals results since the KHSAA switched to the 6-class system.

 

plain text - independent public school

bold text - public "county" school

red text - private school

blue text - miltary/other school

 

1A

2017 Beechwood 41-0 Raceland

2016 Beechwood 21-14 Hazard

2015 Pikeville 42-28 Beechwood

2014 Mayfield 28-27 OT Williamsburg

2013 Mayfield 42-0 Williamsburg

2012 Mayfield 55-8 VACATED (Fairview)

2011 Hazard 24-6 Mayfield

2010 Mayfield 47-6 Hazard

2009 Lexington Christian 55-19 Mayfield

2008 Beechwood 14-7 Hazard

2007 Beechwood 38-35 Lexington Christian

 

2A

2017 Danville 35-21 Mayfield

2016 Christian Academy-Lou. 24-6 Danville

2015 Mayfield 17-7 Newport Central Catholic

2014 DeSales 26-0 Newport Central Catholic

2013 DeSales 34-26 Newport Central Catholic

2012 Newport Central Catholic 30-26 Caldwell County

2011 Holy Cross (Cov.) 33-14 Glasgow

2010 Newport Central Catholic 42-0 Owensboro Catholic

2009 Fort Campbell 29-9 DeSales

2008 Fort Campbell 26-23 Newport Central Catholic

2007 Fort Campbell 21-7 Newport Central Catholic

 

3A

2017 Boyle County 40-21 Corbin

2016 Belfry 52-31 Central

2015 Belfry 43-0 Lexington Catholic

2014 Belfry 14-7 Central

2013 Belfry 3-0 Wayne County

2012 Central 12-6 (OT) Belfry

2011 Central 15-14 Belfry

2010 Central 46-7 Belfry

2009 Paducah Tilghman 21-0 Somerset

2008 Central 40-19 Breathitt County

2007 Central 27-17 Belfry

 

4A

2017 Franklin-Simpson 35-21 Johnson Central

2016 Johnson Central 48-0 Franklin-Simpson

2015 South Warren 36-6 Johnson Central

2014 Highlands 49-42 Owensboro

2013 Collins 37-34 Highlands

2012 Highlands 47-0 Collins

2011 Highlands 42-14 Franklin-Simpson

2010 Boyle County 21-14 Allen Co.-Scottsville

2009 Boyle County 42-39 (2OT) Lone Oak

2008 Bell County 15-13 Bullitt East

2007 Lexington Catholic 49-7 Lone Oak

 

5A

2017 Covington Catholic 49-13 Madison Southern

2016 Bowling Green 70-22 Pulaski County

2015 Bowling Green 21-7 Pulaski County

2014 Pulaski County 14-7 Graves County

2013 Bowling Green 49-14 Pulaski County

2012 Bowling Green 34-20 Cooper

2011 Bowling Green 55-3 Anderson County

2010 Highlands 50-0 Christian County

2009 Highlands 35-7 John Hardin

2008 Highlands 35-15 Christian County

2007 Highlands 28-7 Bowling Green

 

6A

2017 Trinity (Louisville) 38-21 St. Xavier

2016 Trinity (Louisville) 56-21 Lafayette

2015 Male 41-14 Lafayette

2014 Trinity (Louisville) 47-14 Dixie Heights

2013 Scott County 21-14 Meade County

2012 Trinity (Louisville) 61-7 Pleasure Ridge Park

2011 Trinity (Louisville) 62-21 Scott County

2010 Trinity (Louisville) 38-0 Male

2009 St. Xavier 34-10 Trinity (Louisville)

2008 Trinity (Louisville) 48-0 Simon Kenton

2007 Trinity (Louisville) 34-28 (OT) St. Xavier

Edited January 11, 20188 yr by Colonels_Wear_Blue

Since the KHSAA switched to the 6-class system (figures are a total tally, not the number of unique teams):

 

1A

Participating In State Finals

2 private school teams

20 independent public school teams

0 public “county” school teams

 

Winning The State Finals

1 private school winner

10 independent public school winners

0 public “county” school winners

 

 

2A

Participating In State Finals

13 private school teams

5 independent private school team

1 public “county” school team

3 other/military school teams

 

Winning The State Finals

6 private school winners

2 independent private school winners

0 public “county” school winners

3 other/military school winners

 

 

3A

Participating In State Finals

1 private school team

3 independent public school teams

18 public “county” school teams

 

Winning The State Finals

0 private school winners

1 independent public school winner

10 public “county” school winners

 

 

4A

Participating In State Finals

1 private school team

5 independent public school teams

16 public “county” school teams

 

Winning The State Finals

1 private school winner

3 independent public school winners

7 public “county” school winners

 

 

5A

Participating In State Finals

1 private school team

10 independent public school teams

11 public “county” school teams

 

Winning The State Finals

1 private school winner

9 independent public school winners

1 public “county” school winner

 

 

6A

Participating In State Finals

12 private school teams

0 independent public school teams

10 public “county” school teams

 

Winning The State Finals

9 private school winners

0 independent public school winners

2 public “county” school winners

Edited January 5, 20188 yr by Colonels_Wear_Blue

Since the KHSAA switched to the 6-class system:

 

There have been 66 state championship football games played across all classes.

 

There have been 18 state championship wins (27.27% of total) by teams from private schools.

 

There have been 25 state championship wins (37.87% of total) by teams from independent public schools.

 

There have been 20 state championship wins (30.31% of total) by teams from public "county" schools.

 

There have been 3 state championship wins by (4.55% of total) teams from military schools.

Since the KHSAA switched to the 6-class system:

 

 

There have been 66 state championship football games played across all classes, making for 132 team appearances in by teams in the state finals.

 

 

There have been 30 state championship appearances (22.72% of total) by teams from private schools.

 

 

There have been 43 state championship appearances (32.58% of total) by teams from independent public schools.

 

 

There have been 56 state championship appearances (42.43% of total) by teams from public "county" schools.

 

 

There have been 3 state championship appearances by (2.27% of total) teams from military schools.

Edited January 11, 20188 yr by Colonels_Wear_Blue

Since the KHSAA switched to the 6-class system:

 

There have been 66 state championship football games played across all classes.

 

There have been 18 state championship wins (27.27% of total) by teams from private schools.

 

There have been 25 state championship wins (37.87% of total) by teams from independent public schools.

 

There have been 20 state championship wins (30.31% of total) by teams from public "county" schools.

 

There have been 3 state championship wins by (4.55% of total) teams from military schools.

 

So we really need a separate playoff class for independent schools...

Yes, & that’s why the financial impact of support has to be considered. Particularly for Football, which there is cost involved.

Look at what Scott County has put into Athletics at their one HS in recent years. 2 turf practice fields on campus. An amazing weight room/field house building, etc etc. Will be interesting to see how new HS impacts that long term.

As for Lex, FDHS is getting a lot now because leaders are striking while funding is available to the new school using those resources. 3 years from now will they still be able to put money toward that school the way they are now? Time will tell but the larger the public district the more the “if we do for one we must do for the other” mentality becomes an issue.

As for Boone County, take a look at the level of success before the opening of the other schools until now....

This is where T & X truly have an advantage. They can support Football specifically at a higher level than a public school can. Which is a reason why people are attracted to them in a sense. This same thing would be true if we were talking about a great Biology Department, or Foriegn Language Studies or Club Sports or whatever a particular Private school might want to really support in a serious way. A private school can and will be run in a different way than a public school. It is the very reason why some people desire to send their child to private schools, No?

 

I will point out that some of the perceived advantages are result of prioritization or focus and not an 'inherent' or systemic advantage.

 

Financial - I am pretty sure that tuitions are not funding ongoing operations. The privates have to raise football funds just for football. If the funding raising falls short then parents have to kick in the remaining. At least at LexCath.

 

Facilities - Some schools may have nice fields but the 'back-office' facilities like weight-rooms, etc. vary greatly. With fields - places like Trinity and LexCath are landlocked. The football field is shared with all the other sports - soccer, lacrosse, etc. And remember that St. X's very nice facilities did not exist for decades as they played in the very old Manuel stadium.

 

In Lexington the publics are now all on turf. Lafayette is probably the 'best' field in the county (though I have not been to FD).

 

I think inherent advantage is more parental involvement, focus and enthusiasm. Along with history, heritage and tradition.

 

While those things may be hard to measure there is one objective advantage T and X do have. That is to field 100+ player freshman teams. Its a raw numerical advantage but also it drives internal competition since not all of those players going to be playing JV the following year. And not all the JVs will see action at the varsity level. So every player is focused every practice and in every play on the field. They learn to execute each time and not get sloppy. And by the time they are in varsity they have run every play in the playbook so many times with perfection that they have unmatched confidence level. This is the sort of culture and advantage that the high numbers of players provide. I really believe that this why these two schools are separated from the others large schools.

I will point out that some of the perceived advantages are result of prioritization or focus and not an 'inherent' or systemic advantage.

 

Financial - I am pretty sure that tuitions are not funding ongoing operations. The privates have to raise football funds just for football. If the funding raising falls short then parents have to kick in the remaining. At least at LexCath.

 

Facilities - Some schools may have nice fields but the 'back-office' facilities like weight-rooms, etc. vary greatly. With fields - places like Trinity and LexCath are landlocked. The football field is shared with all the other sports - soccer, lacrosse, etc. And remember that St. X's very nice facilities did not exist for decades as they played in the very old Manuel stadium.

 

In Lexington the publics are now all on turf. Lafayette is probably the 'best' field in the county (though I have not been to FD).

 

I think inherent advantage is more parental involvement, focus and enthusiasm. Along with history, heritage and tradition.

 

While those things may be hard to measure there is one objective advantage T and X do have. That is to field 100+ player freshman teams. Its a raw numerical advantage but also it drives internal competition since not all of those players going to be playing JV the following year. And not all the JVs will see action at the varsity level. So every player is focused every practice and in every play on the field. They learn to execute each time and not get sloppy. And by the time they are in varsity they have run every play in the playbook so many times with perfection that they have unmatched confidence level. This is the sort of culture and advantage that the high numbers of players provide. I really believe that this why these two schools are separated from the others large schools.

 

I agree with everything in your post with the exception of one point. While the Advantages may not be inherent they are in my opinion systemic.

 

Your points about Fr/JV level at T & X, and the benefits gained are spot on as well.

I agree with everything in your post with the exception of one point. While the Advantages may not be inherent they are in my opinion systemic.

 

Your points about Fr/JV level at T & X, and the benefits gained are spot on as well.

 

I can agree with that update.

Also, one last point to Bluegrasscard's very good post above...

While all the Lex Schools are on turf & have nice fields, as do many schools now. Everyone I know that has a turf field has to share it to some extent, I would be willing to place a hefty wager on the fact that Band, Soccer or some other activity is NOT on the field during a Football Practice at T or X. (Or anywhere that supports their program even a little for that matter.)

What if private and independent schools were put into one division and split into 2 classes. Then put all the public schools into 4 classes. Same number of classes. Make the biggest private/independent class 8 teams to get more schools away from Trinity and X, since that's what most of this is about anyway.

 

Or just put Trinity and X in a 2 team class....same result as it is now.

I think what @74devil is saying is that it isn't really a "private school" problem in the eyes of many, but rather a "Trinity" problem. If Trinity hadn't completely dominated AAAA and now 6A most wouldn't care about whether public and private schools played against one another.

 

Or to put it another way - nobody is wringing their hands over Country Day, Brossart or Bethlehem.

 

Bethlehem is the ONLY private school in the 5th Region, yet since 2000, has maybe 15 combined region titles across all sports.

 

Since they are private, after all, shouldn't they be straight up dominating the 5th since there is no other private school within miles and miles?

Also, one last point to Bluegrasscard's very good post above...

While all the Lex Schools are on turf & have nice fields, as do many schools now. Everyone I know that has a turf field has to share it to some extent, I would be willing to place a hefty wager on the fact that Band, Soccer or some other activity is NOT on the field during a Football Practice at T or X. (Or anywhere that supports their program even a little for that matter.)

 

Trinity has a practice field that is located a few blocks from the school. At least when my son played at T, they practiced there, not on the game field. That field is grass and has a pretty busy street as a boundary.