Anybody notice that one side of the debate is calm and respectful while the other side is growing frustrated and resorting to childish insults? Tells me one is secure in his beliefs and the other is not.

Oh, you can believe PP1's explanation if you want, and the only cost to do so is a sacrifice of logic, reason, and knowledge of history.

 

We can stop for a little bit if you wish. But the potential cost of believing your explanation is a little more dangerous.

I find the debate fascinating. Good to see cordial, well researched debate on both sides of a sensitive issue.

Anybody notice that one side of the debate is calm and respectful while the other side is growing frustrated and resorting to childish insults? Tells me one is secure in his beliefs and the other is not.

 

I am not frustrated at all, and have not intended to lodge any childish insults. I speak in a certain way, to question the prevailing view. Hard to speak truth to power without occasionally crossing some line, but while I admit that I might offend someone here or there, it is not my intent to do so; I am not writing with a purpose to simply offend. So far you are the only one who has lodged this charge.

@PP1 we can pick this back up later of course, but we are close to beating a dead horse. Another question perhaps, your choice of to stay the course or move along. How does one gain eternal life? (that's a good question)

The problem of evil has been struggled with by philosophers and theologians for close to 2000 years. The best answer I have heard is free will. God wants to be loved. You cant love without free will. Adam and Eve corrupted the natural world with their choice and brought evil and sin into the world. The fallen angels (Lucifer was first) have free will too. All of the sin and evil that have ever happened are because God has allowed free will to allow love. Your love for God and for each other outweighs all of the evil that has ever happened.

The problem of evil has been struggled with by philosophers and theologians for close to 2000 years. The best answer I have heard is free will. God wants to be loved. You cant love without free will. Adam and Eve corrupted the natural world with their choice and brought evil and sin into the world. The fallen angels (Lucifer was first) have free will too. All of the sin and evil that have ever happened are because God has allowed free will to allow love. Your love for God and for each other outweighs all of the evil that has ever happened.

 

My response is in post #2, in particular the parts labeled A, B, and C. (Responding this way as a matter of economy, don't want the guru to go broke paying for bandwidth.)

We can stop for a little bit if you wish. But the potential cost of believing your explanation is a little more dangerous.

 

I'll bite. What is the potential cost? Hellfire and Damnation?

I'll bite. What is the potential cost? Hellfire and Damnation?

 

I thought you wanted the dead horse to not get beaten? I hear people say the phrase "Hellfire and Damnation." For the record I never have used that terminology.

We can stop for a little bit if you wish. But the potential cost of believing your explanation is a little more dangerous.

 

I'll bite. What is the potential cost? Hellfire and Damnation?

 

I thought you wanted the dead horse to not get beaten? I hear people say the phrase "Hellfire and Damnation." For the record I never have used that terminology.

 

Okay.... I'll bite. What is the potential cost?

 

P.S. we have addressed two questions here "why do bad things happen to good people" and "were the early believers polytheistic" I think both have been covered enough, so yeah, a dead horse, but I gave you the option to continue or change questions.

Okay.... I'll bite. What is the potential cost?

 

P.S. we have addressed two questions here "why do bad things happen to good people" and "were the early believers polytheistic" I think both have been covered enough, so yeah, a dead horse, but I gave you the option to continue or change questions.

 

I know. I was just messing with you. I'll reply in a little while. I am enjoying this immensely

I find the debate fascinating. Good to see cordial, well researched debate on both sides of a sensitive issue.

 

I agree with this ^

Very interesting debate between these two. Impressed with both.

 

I've got some opinions myself but I have posted them on here in other long ago threads. I think guru started a couple of threads that were discussed in quite a bit of detail. No use in me going through it again. I think I'll just read what others think and believe and leave it at that.

Forums like this are terrible venues for debates. This one could not be called a debate. One person had to defend his position while the other person tried to poke holes in it without having to defending his own position.

 

@MayfieldFan seems to be conversant with the writings of the so-called “new atheists” such as Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, etc. In addition, I would guess he has some atheist apologetic sites where he can mine information to use and can find questions to ask. @PP1 was doing his best based on whatever he had been able to gather over the years. That’s a tough assignment.

 

Another limitation of having this kind of debate on a forum is staying on topic. You can chase so many rabbits that the original topic gets short shrift and lots of time is spent chasing other trails. In a real debate, the topic is narrowly defined and participants must stay on topic. One plus in this thread, it stayed a two-person discussion. Often there is piling on and you can just multiply the rabbit trails exponentially then.

 

One point on which I agree with @MayfieldFan is that the Christian God is omniscient and omnipotent. Your remark on this, MyfldFn: “Listen if god didn't know that Cain killed Abel, then why are we worshiping him? Not the hardest murder to solve.” Hilarious! Made me laugh out loud. Well played.

 

For those who may be interested, I will link to a web site that offers answers to some of the issues raised in this thread. The web site is Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig. The links I will supply come from the Q&A section of the web site. These are real questions from real people. Craig’s answers are concise while being well-thought out. Though I say they are concise, they are lengthier than we are used to reading on this forum, except for posts by @B-Ball-fan

 

1. Why do bad things happen to good people? Craig addresses this question from a grieving father whose 3 yr old daughter just died. Letter from a Grieving Father | Reasonable Faith

 

2. Are the remnants of polytheism found in the Bible thus indicating that Israel’s religion was once polytheistic and then scrubbed of it later in their history? Craig has a guest address this question from someone who reads his blog. In his answer he discusses, among other things, the Hebrew word Elohim, which is plural. Jewish Beliefs About God | Reasonable Faith

 

3. @B-Ball-fan is impressed with the simplicity of atheist answers and has a sense that they provide the most logical solutions. Here’s an impassioned plea from an atheist to Craig for help to sort things out because he has come to the opposite conclusion as B-Ball-fan. His searching has led him to conclude that theism provides the most coherent answers to life and reality. “You’ve Ruined My Life, Professor Craig!!” | Reasonable Faith

 

The reason I am posting these things is not because I want to get into a link-for-link sparring session with MayfieldFan, or anyone else for that matter. I am posting to say that when the arguments for theism are considered, they are plausible, coherent, and informative at worst, and at best, very convincing. We may disagree on which side we end up, but it is my hope that no one will walk away from a theistic position without having taken the time to inform him/herself of the most robust version of that position that she/he can find. William Lane Craig’s web site has transcripts of debates he’s had with atheists, articles, and lots more Q&A if you want fuller answers to your questions.

 

Check out Reasonable Faith and RZIM, two very good sites dedicated to Christian theism. It’s a start.

Forums like this are terrible venues for debates. This one could not be called a debate. One person had to defend his position while the other person tried to poke holes in it without having to defending his own position.

 

@MayfieldFan seems to be conversant with the writings of the so-called “new atheists” such as Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, etc. In addition, I would guess he has some atheist apologetic sites where he can mine information to use and can find questions to ask. @PP1 was doing his best based on whatever he had been able to gather over the years. That’s a tough assignment.

 

Another limitation of having this kind of debate on a forum is staying on topic. You can chase so many rabbits that the original topic gets short shrift and lots of time is spent chasing other trails. In a real debate, the topic is narrowly defined and participants must stay on topic. One plus in this thread, it stayed a two-person discussion. Often there is piling on and you can just multiply the rabbit trails exponentially then.

 

One point on which I agree with @MayfieldFan is that the Christian God is omniscient and omnipotent. Your remark on this, MyfldFn: “Listen if god didn't know that Cain killed Abel, then why are we worshiping him? Not the hardest murder to solve.” Hilarious! Made me laugh out loud. Well played.

 

For those who may be interested, I will link to a web site that offers answers to some of the issues raised in this thread. The web site is Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig. The links I will supply come from the Q&A section of the web site. These are real questions from real people. Craig’s answers are concise while being well-thought out. Though I say they are concise, they are lengthier than we are used to reading on this forum, except for posts by @B-Ball-fan

 

1. Why do bad things happen to good people? Craig addresses this question from a grieving father whose 3 yr old daughter just died. Letter from a Grieving Father | Reasonable Faith

 

2. Are the remnants of polytheism found in the Bible thus indicating that Israel’s religion was once polytheistic and then scrubbed of it later in their history? Craig has a guest address this question from someone who reads his blog. In his answer he discusses, among other things, the Hebrew word Elohim, which is plural. Jewish Beliefs About God | Reasonable Faith

 

3. @B-Ball-fan is impressed with the simplicity of atheist answers and has a sense that they provide the most logical solutions. Here’s an impassioned plea from an atheist to Craig for help to sort things out because he has come to the opposite conclusion as B-Ball-fan. His searching has led him to conclude that theism provides the most coherent answers to life and reality. “You’ve Ruined My Life, Professor Craig!!” | Reasonable Faith

 

The reason I am posting these things is not because I want to get into a link-for-link sparring session with MayfieldFan, or anyone else for that matter. I am posting to say that when the arguments for theism are considered, they are plausible, coherent, and informative at worst, and at best, very convincing. We may disagree on which side we end up, but it is my hope that no one will walk away from a theistic position without having taken the time to inform him/herself of the most robust version of that position that she/he can find. William Lane Craig’s web site has transcripts of debates he’s had with atheists, articles, and lots more Q&A if you want fuller answers to your questions.

 

Check out Reasonable Faith and RZIM, two very good sites dedicated to Christian theism. It’s a start.

 

I don't really disagree with much of this other than the descriptions of WLC. But your descriptions are your opinion or judgment of his words, so ...to each his own. There is a good debate on youtube between WLC and Sam Harris. I think it was held at Notre Dame or some other catholic school. It's worth a watch. However, though I admire Harris as a thinker and a debater, imo hands down no questions whatsoever the best debater ever was Christopher Hitchens. A digression.

 

I readily concede that I have websites, and books, from which I can mine information. Have several shelves of books and my browsers bookmark listing is ridiculous. Generally when I post I try to simply write what I know or remember, and if I think I have to be precise I will go try to find it. If I quote someone or take their idea from somewhere other than the recesses of my memory, I will say so. I doubt anything I have said can't be readily found on the internets.

 

Finally, I would not want anyone to walk away from theism without being as informed as possible either. It is a big step, and really only the first step, if one is to take it. So it should be a confident and considered step. (Of course it would be less of an issue if we let people decide as they grow up instead of raising them to believe )

I agree with this ^

Very interesting debate between these two. Impressed with both.

 

I've got some opinions myself but I have posted them on here in other long ago threads. I think guru started a couple of threads that were discussed in quite a bit of detail. No use in me going through it again. I think I'll just read what others think and believe and leave it at that.

 

Agreed.

 

I doubt that many if any BGP readers will be "converted" from one side to the other. Nor am I keeping score, or trying to determine "a winner".

 

I'm just happy to see an interesting discussion on a hot-button topic that is not rife with platitudes and name-calling.

Okay.... I'll bite. What is the potential cost?

 

P.S. we have addressed two questions here "why do bad things happen to good people" and "were the early believers polytheistic" I think both have been covered enough, so yeah, a dead horse, but I gave you the option to continue or change questions.

 

I would like a new thread for the question you asked about eternal life. I will start one.

What is the cost?

 

According to you, the only cost in believing what I believe is a loss of logic. If what I believe is true than the cost of not believing is much more tragic; that is being out of the presence of God. I'm not going to try and explain what Hell is like, I have no idea. I do not necessarily believe it is fiery because fire is of the physical world and Hell is a spiritual place. I would just say "being out of God's presence." This happened to Cain and it was the worse think for him.