Because the question assumes the existence in God, then I feel I am allowed to use the Bible as a reference. I wrote this in MW and pasted. I tried to divide it up into 5 different concepts.

 

Why do bad things happen to good people?

 

This is the biggest barrier that stops non-believers from becoming believers. How can an almighty, omnipotent, loving God allow bad things to happen to good people? The Sandy hook shooting? September 11th? Son of Sam? My dad’s (who is a preacher) cancer? Why do these things happen?

 

1. Why do bad things happen in general? We know the answer to this. Bad things happen because we live in a fallen world. God created the world and created people. People are not perfect and brought sin, disease, death, and immorality into the world. The Bible is very clear that we live in a dark world. A Nasty world. A world where during a famine people would eat babies (2 Kings 6:29). A world where when Jesus was born, King Herod ordered the murder of all little boys under the age of 2 (Matthew 2:16). People decide to do bad things, so that is why bad things happen in general.

 

2. Why does God allow people to decide to do bad things? God wants a real world. A world where people decide to do what is right. A world where his children want to do good things instead of doing bad things. God gives us advice and direction, even from the beginning of time (Genesis 3:1-3) but he still leaves it up to his children to de ide to do what is right. Would it be better if we were just born and were forced to love, praise, and worship God in order to go to heaven? Maybe it would. But would it be real or would we be like robots? On my cell phone I have it set up where Siri calls me “Sexy Beast.” I think it is hilarious when my sister, mother-in-law, wife, and friends hear it. Siri does not really think I am a Sexy Beast, she just says it because I have programmed her to do. It is not real. God could make us pray to him the way I programmed Siri. But he wants us to decide to do it on our own. Since he gives all of us that choice, some people will decide to do bad.

 

3. Why does God allow those bad things to happen to good people? This kind piggy backs question #2. Because we live in a free world where we are not robots, people will decide to do bad things to other people. It happened in the Bible to Abel (Genesis 4:8), Stephen (Acts 7:54), Jesus, and more.

 

4. What about bad things that are not the result of another person’s actions? I hate the fact that my dad is dyeing of or that my nephew has Autism. They are both good innocent people that have fallen victim to disease, not a bad decision by another person. Its all a part of the fact that we live in fallen world. A world where disease, tragedy, and disaster happened. It was not God’s plan. Originally it was never his intention for us to die. When we brought sin into the world, the perfect paradise changed, and pain, illness, and death was introduced.

 

5. Does this explanation and reasoning make me fell any better? Not at all. I feel bitter sometimes towards God when I think about my Dad, Nephew, School Shootings, tragic car accidents, and other things. I am too weak a man to be able to really understand. But I do get some peace in knowing that God is still in control, even during the darkest hours. And that just because a life ends on this earth, it does not mean that life does not continue in heaven. John chapter 1 tells us that we live in a dark world. A terrible world where horrific things happen. But that Jesus is the light of the world and that the light shines through the darkness and that the darkness will not overcome it.

 

6. What if there were no God? Would bad things even exist? How can there be evil is there is not holy?

Because the question assumes the existence in God, then I feel I am allowed to use the Bible as a reference. I wrote this in MW and pasted. I tried to divide it up into 5 different concepts.

 

Why do bad things happen to good people?

 

This is the biggest barrier that stops non-believers from becoming believers. How can an almighty, omnipotent, loving God allow bad things to happen to good people? The Sandy hook shooting? September 11th? Son of Sam? My dad’s (who is a preacher) cancer? Why do these things happen?

 

Not sure I agree with you on the bolded above. I just re-read the other thread and that certainly didn't jump out. The question was only raised 3 pages in, by me, as an example of the "hard questions" that are only hard if one assumes the existence of god.

 

1. Why do bad things happen in general? We know the answer to this. Bad things happen because we live in a fallen world. God created the world and created people. People are not perfect and brought sin, disease, death, and immorality into the world. The Bible is very clear that we live in a dark world. A Nasty world. A world where during a famine people would eat babies (2 Kings 6:29). A world where when Jesus was born, King Herod ordered the murder of all little boys under the age of 2 (Matthew 2:16). People decide to do bad things, so that is why bad things happen in general.

 

This appears to be the "original sin" theory where the bad stuff that happens is more or less a result of our failings or eve eating the apple. When you say "people are not perfect and brought sin , disease, death, and immorality into the world", I have to disagree. God is omniscient no? He knew eve would eat the apple and certainly could have created the world in such a way that it would not have happened. God more or less set the whole thing up, knowing exactly what would happen (according to the bible). It wasn't eve, (a figurative eve or literal eve), it was god who set it up. The whole idea of original sin is ridiculous in the face of an all-powerful loving god, including the set-up (described already) and the scale of consequence (punish all humanity for one thing), and the notion that we should be punished for the crime of being exactly as our creator made us. If all have sinned, then the problem is not with "all" it is with the person/god who set the standard.

 

Which means that "original sin", by itself, with no additional theory, makes god out to be a colossal jerk when you think about it. What is needed is something more...the idea that we have these conditions not because god is a jerk, but for some reason. And in the next paragraphs, you give the reason, the free will theodicy.

 

2. Why does God allow people to decide to do bad things? God wants a real world. A world where people decide to do what is right. A world where his children want to do good things instead of doing bad things. God gives us advice and direction, even from the beginning of time (Genesis 3:1-3) but he still leaves it up to his children to de ide to do what is right. Would it be better if we were just born and were forced to love, praise, and worship God in order to go to heaven? Maybe it would. But would it be real or would we be like robots? On my cell phone I have it set up where Siri calls me “Sexy Beast.” I think it is hilarious when my sister, mother-in-law, wife, and friends hear it. Siri does not really think I am a Sexy Beast, she just says it because I have programmed her to do. It is not real. God could make us pray to him the way I programmed Siri. But he wants us to decide to do it on our own. Since he gives all of us that choice, some people will decide to do bad.

 

3. Why does God allow those bad things to happen to good people? This kind piggy backs question #2. Because we live in a free world where we are not robots, people will decide to do bad things to other people. It happened in the Bible to Abel (Genesis 4:8), Stephen (Acts 7:54), Jesus, and more.

 

 

Paragraphs 2 and 3 are statements, in your words, of the free will theodicy. It's been around since Augustine at least, and a sea of ink has been written about it. Common issues with it abound. Here is a shotgun approach to it.

A. We don't have to live in a world with evil to live in a world with free will. Think of heaven. Free will there, no evil. Or if Lucifer didn't have free will, then how did he revolt (along with all the other angels who joined him). Everyone who wants to spend eternity in a heaven with no free will, the line forms at your local church. We could live in a world where our free will was to choose between different good options.

 

B. Why punish innocents just to establish free will. Bob has free will. God likes free will so we can choose. As you said, god doesn't want robots. So Bob exercises his free will and kidnaps, tortures, rapes and kills little Billy. Billy is innocent and suffers because Bob made a choice. An all powerful god could easily make a world in which we all have free will, and if we choose wrong, we are punished, but no innocents suffer for the wrong choices of others.

 

C. Free will theodicy does not address natural disasters. Lots of people die from floods, hurricanes, earthquakes and the such. All these things happened before humans took their first step. Why do so many children die from natural disasters, or disease? Free will theodicy doesn't even touch this. Unless you subscribe to the theory that god sends these diseases and natural disasters to punish us for immorality. If you believe that, let me refer you back to the "that makes god sound like a real jerk" section.

 

 

4. What about bad things that are not the result of another person’s actions? I hate the fact that my dad is dyeing of or that my nephew has Autism. They are both good innocent people that have fallen victim to disease, not a bad decision by another person. Its all a part of the fact that we live in fallen world. A world where disease, tragedy, and disaster happened. It was not God’s plan. Originally it was never his intention for us to die. When we brought sin into the world, the perfect paradise changed, and pain, illness, and death was introduced.

 

See above.

 

5. Does this explanation and reasoning make me fell any better? Not at all. I feel bitter sometimes towards God when I think about my Dad, Nephew, School Shootings, tragic car accidents, and other things. I am too weak a man to be able to really understand. But I do get some peace in knowing that God is still in control, even during the darkest hours. And that just because a life ends on this earth, it does not mean that life does not continue in heaven. John chapter 1 tells us that we live in a dark world. A terrible world where horrific things happen. But that Jesus is the light of the world and that the light shines through the darkness and that the darkness will not overcome it.

 

6. What if there were no God? Would bad things even exist? How can there be evil is there is not holy?

Answers to 6, in order, Look around, sure, sure.

These last parts in p. 5 are your personal beliefs, and I have not desire to rain on this parade. FWIW, I sense that even you are not fully satisfied with the answers, or that's how I read what you wrote. But you still take comfort from believing, and that's cool for you. I got to "comfort" when I set aside the belief that god exists, and took the answers that made much more sense. It has definitely caused me to think differently about how I live each day, the type of person I want to be, and what to do with the time I have.

Couple of responses....

 

I'm pretty sure that original sin is the idea that we are born guilty of sin. That is not what I was talking about nor is it what I believe. I do not believe in infant baptism because I do not believe that children are capable of sinning.

 

I also do not believe that God is necessarily omniscient. I do not believe free will can exist if God knows exactly what I am going to do. This morning, Anthony spilled his milk. Is there anything I could have done to stop that from happening? Watched him more closely? Given him juice? If God knows that tomorrow I will have oatmeal for breakfast, is there anything I can do to have goetta instead? I do not think God knows what I will eat tomorrow for breakfast.

 

Of course I left some details out of my response, I preached a 6 week series over this topic and did not want to type it all out.

 

I indeed am not satisfied with why horrible things happen to good people. In Job, when Job is being interrogated by God for kind of mouthing off, God pretty much said "I am almighty and great. That should be enough for you."

 

If there is know God, than how can things be either good or bad? ITs no different then a shark attacking a surfer? Did the shark do anything bad?

This question has troubled humankind for millennia. It's no coincidence that the earliest-written book in the Bible (Job) explores this topic in depth. To embrace the concept of a divine being, one first must come to terms with bad things happening to good people.

This question has troubled humankind for millennia. It's no coincidence that the earliest-written book in the Bible (Job) explores this topic in depth. To embrace the concept of a divine being, one first must come to terms with bad things happening to good people.

 

Not really. Everyone knows bad things happen. I would re-word this as "one must embrace the concept of a god who allows bad things to happen because bad things happen."

This can take several forms. PP1 above in his first post argued that god allows bad things because 1. free will and 2. humanity is responsible for the sin, disease, etc.

There is a much easier and cleaner explanation. Bad things happen to good people because there is no god to prevent them.

Couple of responses....

 

I'm pretty sure that original sin is the idea that we are born guilty of sin. That is not what I was talking about nor is it what I believe. I do not believe in infant baptism because I do not believe that children are capable of sinning.

 

I also do not believe that God is necessarily omniscient. I do not believe free will can exist if God knows exactly what I am going to do. This morning, Anthony spilled his milk. Is there anything I could have done to stop that from happening? Watched him more closely? Given him juice? If God knows that tomorrow I will have oatmeal for breakfast, is there anything I can do to have goetta instead? I do not think God knows what I will eat tomorrow for breakfast.

 

Of course I left some details out of my response, I preached a 6 week series over this topic and did not want to type it all out.

 

I indeed am not satisfied with why horrible things happen to good people. In Job, when Job is being interrogated by God for kind of mouthing off, God pretty much said "I am almighty and great. That should be enough for you."

 

If there is know God, than how can things be either good or bad? ITs no different then a shark attacking a surfer? Did the shark do anything bad?

 

Only going to reply to this part right now. No, the shark didn't do anything bad. We are not sharks. We don't need god to see good/bad. We saw it long before we invented the christian god. Every civilization has seen good/bad, most never even heard of the bible.

 

Science can explain good/bad. And our tendency to want to be good. The explanation has to do with evolution, so you (and others) may not like it. But the idea that there just can't be good/bad without god is false. You may prefer the religious explanation, "good/bad exists because god says so" but I don't.

Not really. Everyone knows bad things happen. I would re-word this as "one must embrace the concept of a god who allows bad things to happen because bad things happen."

This can take several forms. PP1 above in his first post argued that god allows bad things because 1. free will and 2. humanity is responsible for the sin, disease, etc.

There is a much easier and cleaner explanation. Bad things happen to good people because there is no god to prevent them.

We might be dancing around the same maypole. The reconciliation of bad things happening to good people with the concept of a divine being had to be worked out among ancient Mideast religions before that faith system could be codified. Again, that's likely the chief reason why the book of Job is the oldest text in the Old Testament. In other words, it's safe to say that religions other than Judaism also wrestled with the thread topic. Your last sentence is the most logical explanation, of course, but I'm limiting my comments within the religious arena.

@PP1 Not gonna quote you again, but as to the "god may not be omniscient" idea you spoke about. As I said, the question we are discussing is one of many hard questions that religion struggles with. This is another. The idea of an omniscient god who can see the future brings with it some disturbing implications. Sensing the implications, or seeing them clearly, sometimes people argue that god may not be omniscient after all.

I can certainly understand why someone might want to logically remove from god his powers, as the implications lead to some dark places including fatalism etc. But the bible is pretty clear that god is omniscient. There is a verse about knowing the first and last breath. (too lazy to google) In addition, the bible is full of prophecy, some allegedly fulfilled, and some yet to be fulfilled. If god is not omniscient, then vast swaths of the bible are irrelevant, including the prophecies of the second coming.

You might be saying god can see the future on big things, but not little things. To which I say "huh?". That kinda turns god into a nostrodamus, and a poor one at that as no prediction has come true in the last 2000 years. Still waiting.......

God either knows the future or he doesn't. He can't be omniscient only when you want him to be that way. Problems either way abound.

There is an easier logical way. There is no god. Nobody knows the future. We have free will to choose.

We might be dancing around the same maypole. The reconciliation of bad things happening to good people with the concept of a divine being had to be worked out among ancient Mideast religions before that faith system could be codified. Again, that's likely the chief reason why the book of Job is the oldest text in the Old Testament. It's probably safe to say that religions other than Judaism also wrestled with the thread topic. Your last sentence is the most logical explanation, of course, but I'm limiting my comments within the religious arena.

 

Our maypoles are in the same courtyard. Yours wrestles with the problem, assuming god exists. Mine doesn't make that assumption. The sentence I changed in my reply to you will change as it crosses that divide. I think? lol. close enough for government work.

I do not believe the accuracy of the bible depends on whether or not God is Omniscient. When God/Jesus predicts things or prophecies them, they usually happen, but a lot of times we as humans get in the way. God was going to kill Ahab, but Ahab repented and God acted surprised and said "Have you noticed what Ahab is doing. He is wearing sackcloth. I am not going to kill him afterall" He was going to kill the Ninevites, but they repented to Jonah's teaching and God decided not to kill them.

 

God acted surprised when Cain killed Abel. God warned Cain and Cain ignored him. God said "What have you done?"

 

There are more biblical examples to support God being surprised, changing his mind on account of things we do, or not knowing what was going to happen.

 

I would even go far enough to say that god is not entirely omnipotent (although I may have alluded to this earlier) because too often God does not get what he wants.

 

But God can make anything happen by force if it is his providence. He made the Israelites win and lose various battles. He made mannah and quail fall from the sky.

 

But then the question is "Why didn't he make the planes on Sept. 11th crash before they hit the buildings?" To that I have no real answer that is not based on faith.

 

I do not by this whole morality can exist without God thing though. If god does not exist, then we are not made in his image. Therefore we are just like the animals, incapable of doing "bad" things.

I do not believe the accuracy of the bible depends on whether or not God is Omniscient. When God/Jesus predicts things or prophecies them, they usually happen, but a lot of times we as humans get in the way. God was going to kill Ahab, but Ahab repented and God acted surprised and said "Have you noticed what Ahab is doing. He is wearing sackcloth. I am not going to kill him afterall" He was going to kill the Ninevites, but they repented to Jonah's teaching and God decided not to kill them.

 

God acted surprised when Cain killed Abel. God warned Cain and Cain ignored him. God said "What have you done?"

 

There are more biblical examples to support God being surprised, changing his mind on account of things we do, or not knowing what was going to happen.

 

I would even go far enough to say that god is not entirely omnipotent (although I may have alluded to this earlier) because too often God does not get what he wants.

 

But God can make anything happen by force if it is his providence. He made the Israelites win and lose various battles. He made mannah and quail fall from the sky.

 

But then the question is "Why didn't he make the planes on Sept. 11th crash before they hit the buildings?" To that I have no real answer that is not based on faith.

 

I do not by this whole morality can exist without God thing though. If god does not exist, then we are not made in his image. Therefore we are just like the animals, incapable of doing "bad" things.

 

Not sure what to make of this. Not entirely omnipotent? Sounds like being half-pregnant. You can point to a lot of passages in the bible that make him sound not omnipotent. You can point to a lot of passages that say the opposite.

 

That's really the whole problem, kinda. Like I have said over and over now, there are a lot of questions religion struggles with. To "solve" these issues, religion attempts to define god in some way (semi-omnipotent), or make an excuse for him (innocents must suffer because god likes it when we choose him with free will), or chalk it up to "i don't know." (god is mysterious). But all of these "solutions" cause more problems than they create. Listen if god didn't know that Cain killed Abel, then why are we worshiping him? Not the hardest murder to solve.

 

For me, the cumulative weight of them compels the obvious answer. There is no god. No logical problems there. No inconsistency with the world. Just a lot of people following various imaginary figures for whatever reason. And for most of them, when they see a knotty problem, they say "god is mysterious" and move on. The explanation doesn't have to be good, or make sense, or be right. It just has to be enough to move on and keep on believing. But for atheists (I think for most but I know for myself) the explanations have to make sense. If they don't, it is time to question the assumption at the start....

That's really the whole problem, kinda. Like I have said over and over now, there are a lot of questions religion struggles with. To "solve" these issues, religion attempts to define god in some way (semi-omnipotent), or make an excuse for him (innocents must suffer because god likes it when we choose him with free will), or chalk it up to "i don't know." (god is mysterious).

 

When I said not entirely omnipotent or omniscient, I said that because I am not sure. IT is one or the other and I am the one torn. I also think that that is the case with the other points you have made. I do not think that "religion" struggles with issues, it is the people that struggle and not church doctrine. I find that mot Christians do not even "know what they believe" or "what Christian doctrine" states.

There is no such thing as good or bad people, only good or bad choices.

Oh. I almost forgot. Some of the inconsistencies about "god" in the bible are due to the fact (or theory if you must) that it is not the same god. The first jews were polytheistic. Yahweh is ares, the greek god of war. They worshipped other gods too, and later the whole bible was whitewashed in an attempt to remove any vestiges of the polytheism. That is when the polytheistic jews turned to monotheism and yahweh went from being one of many gods to the "one and only god"

 

But traces still exist. Take for example when moses went up the mountain and came down and the people were worshiping false idols. Think about that. They had just been delivered from slavery, they had just seen the red sea parted. If you can part a sea in front of me...I am a believer. But not these people, they went after a false idol the first chance they got. Would be beyond stupid. Anyway, that isn't what happened. Yahweh, the god of war had been their best bud when they were fleeing, and now that they were safe, they were going over to the goddess of fertility. Because they believed in multiple gods. That puts their actions in a more sensible light. Centuries later, the yahweh worshipers take control, demand sole worship, and go back and change the stories. There is a really good video out there that goes over this in some detail, I will dig it up for you.

When I said not entirely omnipotent or omniscient, I said that because I am not sure. IT is one or the other and I am the one torn. I also think that that is the case with the other points you have made. I do not think that "religion" struggles with issues, it is the people that struggle and not church doctrine. I find that mot Christians do not even "know what they believe" or "what Christian doctrine" states.

 

Well, to be fair, you yourself are torn between god being omnipotent or him not being omnipotent. That sounds exactly like a struggle. And it's kinda a big issue, and one of many. Cause of being torn: this stuff doesn't make sense. Cure: challenge the one assumption that causes all the problems.