In post #70 you said,

 

But isnt it really a failing system that allows and/or needs younger kids to compete and fill out high school teams?

 

I did not feel that Highlands was a failing program/system.

 

 

In "Failing System" I am referring the to programs provided being utilized by the students intended, no one school in particular but the system as a whole. Some schools are better off than others, but the fact that middle school kids participation is even an option is indicative of the nearsightedness of the powers running the show and their failure to see that more kids are needed from the high school ranks or fewer programs. Why is it that this state should even consider allowing middle school kids to play high school sports, when so few other states allow it. The other states not allowing it have just as many or more ms'ers that are capable but yet they are not allowed.

 

What other states allow middle school kids to compete in high school athletics? I think we will find very few, I am interested in why this is an issue in KY and not in more states, any ideas why other states dont allow it?

What about just the states that border KY?

IN - No

OH - No

Tenn - ?

WV - ?

IL - ?

Mo - ?

Does anyone know if these states allow MS to compete?

Does anyone know of states allowing MS to compete?

Big issue with what you are saying is so many of the Class A schools rely on MS kids to even be able to field a team. Augusta has about 70 students in the HS. Cut that in half and you are talking 35 females. Even if 50% of them were interested in athletics that is 18 girls trying to field a soccer, softball team. And we know that 50% of them will not be interested in athletics.

 

So your option is to tell this kids they can't participate because their parents chose to live in Augusta or Robertson County and want them to attend the school they did?

Yes I agree, I believe a school with only 70 kids has some serious issues. Especially when it comes to athletics and how they fill those teams. I think there are solutions other than to MS's filling the voids. Unfortunately some schools so small should limit the number of sports available if they cant field a team. I doubt it would be the first time it has happened.

The fact the younger kids are playing because of lack of enough HS kids is the main reason against ms kids playing. How much risk is assumed for the safety of these younger kids playing against bigger stronger kids simply because they need the numbers?

Yes I agree, I believe a school with only 70 kids has some serious issues. Especially when it comes to athletics and how they fill those teams. I think there are solutions other than to MS's filling the voids. Unfortunately some schools so small should limit the number of sports available if they cant field a team. I doubt it would be the first time it has happened.

The fact the younger kids are playing because of lack of enough HS kids is the main reason against ms kids playing. How much risk is assumed for the safety of these younger kids playing against bigger stronger kids simply because they need the numbers?

Shouldn't that not be a parental decision? Whether their kid is ready and should compete or not? If either of my children are in that situation and I do have a child MS age competing in a HS varsity sport, then the real decision is with me and then the coach of that sport.

 

The sport she plays is a non-contact sport. Not much physical safety issues in tennis, golf, track, cross country, even volleyball.

What other states allow middle school kids to compete in high school athletics? I think we will find very few, I am interested in why this is an issue in KY and not in more states, any ideas why other states dont allow it?

What about just the states that border KY?

IN - No

OH - No

Tenn - ?

WV - ?

IL - ?

Mo - ?

Does anyone know if these states allow MS to compete?

Does anyone know of states allowing MS to compete?

Illinois does not. I'm not sure about Missouri and Tennessee.

Yes I agree, I believe a school with only 70 kids has some serious issues. Especially when it comes to athletics and how they fill those teams. I think there are solutions other than to MS's filling the voids. Unfortunately some schools so small should limit the number of sports available if they cant field a team. I doubt it would be the first time it has happened.

The fact the younger kids are playing because of lack of enough HS kids is the main reason against ms kids playing. How much risk is assumed for the safety of these younger kids playing against bigger stronger kids simply because they need the numbers?

 

 

As to the safety issue, the KHSAA listens very closely to what the Ky.Medical Association says about younger kids participating in certain sports. From what I'm told, the KHSAA is looking at the effect of younger kids participating in cross country events because of health concerns raised by the KMA.

Shouldn't that not be a parental decision? Whether their kid is ready and should compete or not? If either of my children are in that situation and I do have a child MS age competing in a HS varsity sport, then the real decision is with me and then the coach of that sport.

 

The sport she plays is a non-contact sport. Not much physical safety issues in tennis, golf, track, cross country, even volleyball.

 

I think any parent should have a big part of this decision regarding their own child, but initially it has to be decided upon by whatever sanctioning body, in the case of KY I think it would be the KHSAA. They have to decide on how it applies to all not just the most talented and capable.

 

Contact or non contact I have seen players humiliated in non contact sports and injured too!

 

The other side of this coin is: If one middle schooler is able to play, should any and all middle schoolers that want to go out for the high school team be allowed? Whats fair for one should apply to all it seems! Not that all would make the varsity team but could a school create a Freshman and JV team of MS'rs to get them the experience against the older kids?

 

Going back to my earlier thread regarding other states. I think this issue is deeper than are they capable and we need them to fill out teams. I am really interested in why other states dont allow it, I feel like there are probably some very valid reasons. Can anyone shed some light on why other states have made their decisions and why?

I think any parent should have a big part of this decision regarding their own child, but initially it has to be decided upon by whatever sanctioning body, in the case of KY I think it would be the KHSAA. They have to decide on how it applies to all not just the most talented and capable.

 

Contact or non contact I have seen players humiliated in non contact sports and injured too!

 

The other side of this coin is: If one middle schooler is able to play, should any and all middle schoolers that want to go out for the high school team be allowed? Whats fair for one should apply to all it seems! Not that all would make the varsity team but could a school create a Freshman and JV team of MS'rs to get them the experience against the older kids?

 

Going back to my earlier thread regarding other states. I think this issue is deeper than are they capable and we need them to fill out teams. I am really interested in why other states dont allow it, I feel like there are probably some very valid reasons. Can anyone shed some light on why other states have made their decisions and why?

That exact thing happens alot in girls basketball. We have played freshmen teams several times that had only 1-2 freshmen and the rest were 8th, 7th and even 6th graders.

 

Also in girls basketball in several spots around the state, the MS league is in the fall. Meaning the girls can move up and be coached by the HS staff and compete on a freshmen/JV level during the winter months.

I've seen it too in baseball. Not a pretty site watching 13/14 yr olds move to the big field for their first time for some against bigger and better. Longer base paths, pitching mound farther away, its a big adjustment.

At some point wont more and more teams consist of ms'rs playing up resulting in basically a ms league.

The simplest solution to this imbroglio would be to permit absolute open enrollment statewide. Additionally, any tuition assistance paid by private school should not matter. The maximum that could be paid would be the entire amount of tuition, and that would leave the student and his/her family owing $0 for tuition. This is the same amount of tuition paid by public schools, so what is the difference regarding the amount of aid, even 100%, received by the student of a private school or of a public school? With the introduction of this sort of competition, schools would then have to stand or fall on their own merit. In addition to increasing the quality of our schools, this solution would end the incessant wasting the time debating over recruiting, percentage of tuition assistance permitted, and cross county student enrollments. Would any poster on BGP be opposed to this solution, and if so why?

Diogenes, I submit that open enrollment would not have the same effect in rural counties as it would in urban schools. Even if you could, driving 40 minutes in one direction to attend a small rural school, will not have the appeal as having open enrollment in an urban school.

 

This is not an attack but one of the things I see consistently with Jefferson County people is they think that everything that would work in Jefferson County is good for the state. There is a saying in education. You have things for Jefferson County and then you have things for the rest of the state.

Diogenes, I submit that open enrollment would not have the same effect in rural counties as it would in urban schools. Even if you could, driving 40 minutes in one direction to attend a small rural school, will not have the appeal as having open enrollment in an urban school.

 

This is not an attack but one of the things I see consistently with Jefferson County people is they think that everything that would work in Jefferson County is good for the state. There is a saying in education. You have things for Jefferson County and then you have things for the rest of the state.

 

I agree that we all see the problem in our backyard before we see the problem in our neighbor's backyard. I conjecture that persons out in the state may think that everything that would work for persons out in the state is good for Jefferson County. I also believe you are probably right that open enrollment would not have the same affect in the rural counties as it would in urban schools, although you would be surprised at the number of persons that drive 40 minutes in one direction to attend a Catholic school in Jefferson County. All the same, I believe that competition among schools for students would help rural schools and I believe it would vastly improve urban schools to introduce competition to education (after all, competition has been introduced to medicine, law, and all other segments of our society). Also, my second idea of unlimited financial assistance for any student that may reduce tuition by as much as 100%, thereby potentially making all students public or private pay $0 tuition, seems equitable to all students, rural or private. If these two concepts (open enrollment and unlimited tuition assistance) were implemented statewide many of the obstacles preventing rapprochement between Public and Private schools and supporters would be removed IMO. Your thoughts?

Who decides who gets what % of the scholarships?

I think you would create an educational world of cheating, lieing, and dishonesty. Oh wait a minute I think we already have that, just kidding. I dont really think its currently as bad as all that. But wouldnt your plan create curruption within the systems from the administrators, teachers, coaches, parents and the soon to be established scholarship brokers?

 

What would all of this tuition reimbursement cost the schools to offset? Would private tuitions go thru the roof to fund the scholarships?

 

But I think your right parents with the means will opt to send their kids wherever they choose, the days of schools consisting of kids from the neighborhood are pretty much dead and buried. As great a feeling as that was relating to sports with teams competing against other teams and representing their own town or area of town, it just doesnt exist any more in the metro areas and is more and more the case in the rural areas too!

I agree that we all see the problem in our backyard before we see the problem in our neighbor's backyard. I conjecture that persons out in the state may think that everything that would work for persons out in the state is good for Jefferson County. I also believe you are probably right that open enrollment would not have the same affect in the rural counties as it would in urban schools, although you would be surprised at the number of persons that drive 40 minutes in one direction to attend a Catholic school in Jefferson County. All the same, I believe that competition among schools for students would help rural schools and I believe it would vastly improve urban schools to introduce competition to education (after all, competition has been introduced to medicine, law, and all other segments of our society). Also, my second idea of unlimited financial assistance for any student that may reduce tuition by as much as 100%, thereby potentially making all students public or private pay $0 tuition, seems equitable to all students, rural or private. If these two concepts (open enrollment and unlimited tuition assistance) were implemented statewide many of the obstacles preventing rapprochement between Public and Private schools and supporters would be removed IMO. Your thoughts?

I can see someone truly committed to their faith and the worries of raising a kid in a public school setting driving 40 minutes one way. But to drive 40 minutes one way, passing up several public schools and private schools along the way, does not seem like an option that many would choose.

 

I also wonder if those people driving 40 minutes one way to attend a Catholic school in Jefferson County may also work in that area.

 

I really don't have an initial negative reaction to $0 tuition. If there is a cap placed on schools. Taking all students and making a classroom the size of 30 kids because of limitation of space is not a good option to simply allow parents to have more choice. Classes at the elementary level would be best if they were never above 21. Classes at the HS, I think, can function well around 25.

 

I would say that there is more hurdles to jump through to build a public school rather than a private school. Funding is not as open as people believe and the governmental bureaucracy is, well we all know what governmental bureaucracy is like.

I can see someone truly committed to their faith and the worries of raising a kid in a public school setting driving 40 minutes one way. But to drive 40 minutes one way, passing up several public schools and private schools along the way, does not seem like an option that many would choose.

 

I also wonder if those people driving 40 minutes one way to attend a Catholic school in Jefferson County may also work in that area.

 

I really don't have an initial negative reaction to $0 tuition. If there is a cap placed on schools. Taking all students and making a classroom the size of 30 kids because of limitation of space is not a good option to simply allow parents to have more choice. Classes at the elementary level would be best if they were never above 21. Classes at the HS, I think, can function well around 25.

 

I would say that there is more hurdles to jump through to build a public school rather than a private school. Funding is not as open as people believe and the governmental bureaucracy is, well we all know what governmental bureaucracy is like.

 

Actually you may be surprised at the number of people who drive great distances to attend a Catholic school in Jefferson County. For example, I have seen statistics which show that Trinity high school in Louisville is only 60% Catholic. The 40% of their students that are not Catholic drive in from all over Jefferson County and from Oldham County, Bullitt County, Spencer County, and points further away. If you provide a first-class school and learning environment people will drive past schools that are not high quality to have their children attend a quality school. And that is the nub of what I am proposing. Give parents and students a choice. Surely rural people are no different than urban people in wanting their child to attend the highest quality school possible. Open enrollment across county lines would provide choice and would initiate competition among schools for students. Also, an ancillary benefit would occur in our little world of athletics. Schools could no longer fall back on the excuse that other schools enrolled students from out of county. Everyone would be playing under the same rules.

 

As to your other point regarding cap size on classes, yes, in the abstract smaller classes are more ideal. I recognize this from both undergrad courses and from being closely associated with a number of educators. However, as a product of Catholic grade schools of the 1950s there were several years where my classroom size was above 50 students. I recognize the times were different and that nuns were able to employ certain teaching techniques perhaps not in vogue today, but the children our classes truly learned the subject material.