My post was only intended to give what I thought was a reason for what I feel like is a reason for a lot of Christians to oppose this law. Judgement from Above. I thought I clearly said this was a sin that God looks at in a somewhat different light as some of the others which separates this from other sin to a degree that I hear from the poeple who do not oppose gay marriage or homosexuality. I never would make any difference in any human no matter what their sexual orientation was. I have gay friends who will vouch for that, but they understand my position and why I feel that way.

 

I guess I took True Blue and gold wrong. For that I am sorry if I took this post wrong. Forgive me.

 

I do not believe that you have to support same sex marriage. On a side note to this discussion, but more on target with the thread, I think that clerks who cannot do their job due to moral or religious objections should resign. However, I would 100% be against any attempt at forcing a church, synagogue, mosque or minister, preacher, rabbi, iman or priest in performing the actual ceremony.

 

My original response had more to do with what I see some people saying...that what we as a country are doing displeases God and that as a result, we are nearing the "end of days." Is same sex marriage more of a sin than when we slaughtered Native Americans? Is it more of sin than when we enslaved other humans? I could be wrong but, I don't think so. As such, I don't believe that we are displeasing God more now by allowing people to make their own marriage decisions than we did when as a country we slaughtered and/or enslaved people.

Sin is sin, however if you read the Bible very close there are some sins that seem to bring judgement quicker than others did. But I do agree that as a country anytime we kill or enslave people its very very wrong. The Bible clearly states that No sin will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, so we do need to not just be hammering on one sin and think the others are good to go. Bottom line is everyone has to follow their convictions as to what is sin and what is not. Lets just hope everyone chooses correctly in the end.......

Regardless of how one feels about the subject, what I am failing to see is how signing off on a document that gives two people certain legal rights - which is all a marriage license really does - compromises ones moral convictions on a subject matter or how it is an endorsement of a behavior/lifestyle? If a marriage license was called a "binding permit", for example, would it get the same outrage?

I promise this isn't a setup for some sort of attack, but I have a genuine question for those I guess in favor of this bill, but more so those in opposition of the Obergefell decision on religious grounds.

 

What exactly is the sin at issue with gays getting married? Not having sex out of wedlock, but the actual marriage.

 

I don't put a lot of stock in the slippery slope argument for multiple legal reasons, and I don't subscribe to the general moral arguments (e.g. cheapens the definition of marriage, child raising, somehow churches will one day be forced to perform ceremonies, etc.) but recognize that I might not agree, but an argument can have merit. I guess what I am getting at is that from my perspective any argument against SSM starts with that conclusion, then attempts to justify that position. I understand that this has been discussed ad nauseam, but I'm seriously confused about the religious reasons.

 

Is the argument that people are going to engage in homosexual sex acts that they wouldn't without a piece of paper and a 15 minute ceremony by a JOP? Maybe I'm wrong, but whether or not it is a sin, I'm pretty sure straight people in Casey and Rowan Counties are still having sex even though nobody can currently get married.

 

 

The question asked had to do specifically with what “sin” are the clerks hoping to prevent by their refusal to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. I find that the best answer cannot be limited to a discussion of what sin is being committed and presumably prevented by those stubborn county clerks. First of all, no one thinks the relationship of those applying for the license has been chaste up to this point. But more importantly the nature of marriage and the role it plays in culture is far more important and complex than zeroing in on a specific sin. Marriage and family are the foundation for civilization. Marriage and family existed before government or organized religion. Marriage/Family is the institution that provides a loving and stable environment for growth and development for persons to become mature and responsible. The state has a compelling interest in marriage and family because it is the foundation for community and society.

 

To answer the question from a religious perspective, in my case we are talking about the Christian faith, one must begin with what Jesus said on the subject of marriage. In the context of a discussion of when is divorce allowable, Jesus turned the topic on its head by saying divorce was never intended by God. He then quoted Genesis 2:24 and reminded them that the Creator made man “male and female” and then said, “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh,’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Jesus affirms the account in Genesis 2 as a faithful discussion of what God intended marriage to be. Genesis 2 tells us that the first man looked for a suitable partner. This suitable partner could not be found until the creation of woman. As God described the first marriage he said that it had two primary characteristics. One is that it was a covenant between and man and woman. It says a man is to leave his parents and cleave to his spouse. In other words, upon marriage, a person’s chief loyalty and commitment shifts from his parents to his spouse and a new family is formed. Marriage is held together by mutual commitment, consideration, love, and loyalty. It is not to be broken until death separates the marriage partners. This relationship is very special and all cultures have recognized this from ancient times. Cultures all over the world have a ceremony to recognize when a man and a woman enter into this covenant. It has special meaning and purpose.

Another characteristic of marriage has to do with sexual union or “becoming one flesh” as the Bible puts it. There is a sacredness to sex that means that it should be guarded and protected by certain boundaries. Sex outside of these boundaries is a violation of God’s intention. Marriage provides the security for intimate sexual relations. Sex is preceded by love, loyalty, and the commitment provided by the covenant of marriage. One of the reasons that sex is only permitted within this kind of lasting commitment is because of the product of that union. The Creator commanded humankind to be fruitful and multiply. Married couples are to be willing to accept children into their family as a natural expression of their love and intimacy. Marriage is not for the sake of the two marital partners alone but it is also for the purpose of the rearing and nurturing of children.

The woman, as female, had the potential to be a mother. She would find great fulfillment in motherhood but she did not have the capacity on her own to realize this possibility. The man, by his very maleness had the potential to father a child. He would find great fulfillment in fatherhood but he did not have the capacity on his own to fulfill that possibility. Both the woman and the man needed one another to achieve their greatest fulfillment and the greatest expression of their love and loyalty together. Each finds that in order to fulfill his or her God-given potential and their God-given responsibility they needed the other. Without the other they would not be complete. God made them physically compatible for this purpose and spiritually and emotionally compatible with one another so that their love would be completed in a way that it could not be in themselves. In this way, the most basic institution of society was formed and given the ability for self-propagation. The existence of the human race and the fulfillment of the divine purpose for God’s creation hang on sexual differentiation.

 

Same sex unions cannot fulfill this purpose. Not only theology tells you this, but natural philosophy also points in this same direction as well. The essential nature of human personhood is affirmed by our physical bodies and demonstrates that the heterosexual union of man and woman is the only kind of marriage that is consistent with both nature and the intention of nature’s God.

 

So you ask why some religious County Clerks refuse to give out marriage licenses to same sex couples. It may be that they regard it as a violation of God’s intention for marriage and society and they do not want to participate in something that denies the Creator’s right to set parameters for all of life and goes against the pattern for marriage and family that has been found to work all over the world for millennia.

... the pattern for marriage and family that has been found to work all over the world for millennia.

 

What's the divorce rate these days?

What's the divorce rate these days?

 

And I do understand that we are talking "religious grounds" here. I'm just not seeing the "found to work all over the world for millennia" thing.

And just to be clear, I have been happily and heterosexually married since 1978.

 

Does that make me some kind of minority?

It has worked all over the world. It is only in recent times, since the sexual revolution of the 60's and the general cultural upheaval that occurred then and its rejection of all forms of authority, etc. that the family in the US has been breaking down. This breakdown has shown, pretty convincingly, that the best way to raise a family and hence that which is best for society is still with a mother and father who love each other and remain married.

 

It is not to be broken until death separates the marriage partners. .

 

Are you sure about this?

Are you sure about this?

 

Please elaborate.

The question asked had to do specifically with what “sin” are the clerks hoping to prevent by their refusal to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. I find that the best answer cannot be limited to a discussion of what sin is being committed and presumably prevented by those stubborn county clerks. First of all, no one thinks the relationship of those applying for the license has been chaste up to this point. But more importantly the nature of marriage and the role it plays in culture is far more important and complex than zeroing in on a specific sin. Marriage and family are the foundation for civilization. Marriage and family existed before government or organized religion. Marriage/Family is the institution that provides a loving and stable environment for growth and development for persons to become mature and responsible. The state has a compelling interest in marriage and family because it is the foundation for community and society.

 

To answer the question from a religious perspective, in my case we are talking about the Christian faith, one must begin with what Jesus said on the subject of marriage. In the context of a discussion of when is divorce allowable, Jesus turned the topic on its head by saying divorce was never intended by God. He then quoted Genesis 2:24 and reminded them that the Creator made man “male and female” and then said, “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh,’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Jesus affirms the account in Genesis 2 as a faithful discussion of what God intended marriage to be. Genesis 2 tells us that the first man looked for a suitable partner. This suitable partner could not be found until the creation of woman. As God described the first marriage he said that it had two primary characteristics. One is that it was a covenant between and man and woman. It says a man is to leave his parents and cleave to his spouse. In other words, upon marriage, a person’s chief loyalty and commitment shifts from his parents to his spouse and a new family is formed. Marriage is held together by mutual commitment, consideration, love, and loyalty. It is not to be broken until death separates the marriage partners. This relationship is very special and all cultures have recognized this from ancient times. Cultures all over the world have a ceremony to recognize when a man and a woman enter into this covenant. It has special meaning and purpose.

Another characteristic of marriage has to do with sexual union or “becoming one flesh” as the Bible puts it. There is a sacredness to sex that means that it should be guarded and protected by certain boundaries. Sex outside of these boundaries is a violation of God’s intention. Marriage provides the security for intimate sexual relations. Sex is preceded by love, loyalty, and the commitment provided by the covenant of marriage. One of the reasons that sex is only permitted within this kind of lasting commitment is because of the product of that union. The Creator commanded humankind to be fruitful and multiply. Married couples are to be willing to accept children into their family as a natural expression of their love and intimacy. Marriage is not for the sake of the two marital partners alone but it is also for the purpose of the rearing and nurturing of children.

The woman, as female, had the potential to be a mother. She would find great fulfillment in motherhood but she did not have the capacity on her own to realize this possibility. The man, by his very maleness had the potential to father a child. He would find great fulfillment in fatherhood but he did not have the capacity on his own to fulfill that possibility. Both the woman and the man needed one another to achieve their greatest fulfillment and the greatest expression of their love and loyalty together. Each finds that in order to fulfill his or her God-given potential and their God-given responsibility they needed the other. Without the other they would not be complete. God made them physically compatible for this purpose and spiritually and emotionally compatible with one another so that their love would be completed in a way that it could not be in themselves. In this way, the most basic institution of society was formed and given the ability for self-propagation. The existence of the human race and the fulfillment of the divine purpose for God’s creation hang on sexual differentiation.

 

Same sex unions cannot fulfill this purpose. Not only theology tells you this, but natural philosophy also points in this same direction as well. The essential nature of human personhood is affirmed by our physical bodies and demonstrates that the heterosexual union of man and woman is the only kind of marriage that is consistent with both nature and the intention of nature’s God.

 

So you ask why some religious County Clerks refuse to give out marriage licenses to same sex couples. It may be that they regard it as a violation of God’s intention for marriage and society and they do not want to participate in something that denies the Creator’s right to set parameters for all of life and goes against the pattern for marriage and family that has been found to work all over the world for millennia.

 

Great post.

married since 1978.

 

 

Well, Joseph did marry Mary when he was in his 90's, so I guess you getting married in 1978 is right on par J/K

Please elaborate.

 

You said that marriage is intended to be until death separates the partners?

Well, Joseph did marry Mary when he was in his 90's, so I guess you getting married in 1978 is right on par J/K

 

Well, since you "liked" my post I guess I can stop worrying about being suspended LOL

Well, since you "liked" my post I guess I can stop worrying about being suspended LOL

 

If I suspended everybody that ribbed me about my advanced age, I'd never get anything else done.

 

And we'd be down to about one moderator.