Maybe another avenue that you could take this--

 

For those of you who are officials, if you know a coach has a potty mouth and doesn't mean anything by it (i.e., they just "cuss" a lot... they aren't personal with it and don't mean anything by it... it's just a natural thing with them that you expect), does that official get more leeway because you know it isn't malicious or do you just have a line in the sand that you won't tolerate being crossed?

Let me be clear. I was saying that there's a difference between "Clyde, that's a terrible call" and "Clyde, you're terrible."

 

Magic words, as you say, are not automatic for every official. You'll get different levels of tolerance. Some will let it slide if it's said quietly and is not personal.

 

 

I definitely understand the difference in the first paragraph. Sometimes officials are terrible though. They're probably trying, but are just terrible. I'd think a really good official knows they actually aren't "terrible" (i.e., getting the big assignments and being well regarded). I'd think that would roll off their back if someone phrased it as "I think you're a terrible official".

 

In my head, I was thinking the "magic words" had a four letter f-word at least and then some on top of that.

JW, personally I think working officials is a bit overblown. The really good ones aren't going to be affected by it. But, this has turned into a decent thread. I winced at your first post, as it had nothing to do with working a ref IMO. Just typical NFL game talk.

 

In basketball, some refs don't mind being called by their first name, others despise it. I've seem refs at the freshman and JV level whack a guy for that.

 

Also, just because you are not "getting personal" does not mean you get to scream, "that's a terrible call," necessarily. Tone and demeanor mean a lot as well.

 

Knowing the rules goes a long way, and some coaches take advantage of that.

 

Most good refs will talk with coaches, as long as both parties are willing to listen. It's a two way street with that. Always understand sometimes your team fouls too, even if you wish they didn't.

 

I've never met a good ref who wants to whack a coach or player. The bad ones may be quick to do it because they are insecure, but the good ones will listen if you think your team is getting disadvantaged.

 

As others have mentioned, begging on every possession or yelling on every play gets very old very fast. Choose your arguments.

 

My one cent.

I was working over a ref for a couple of bad calls during a game, I knew him fairly well and we were chatting after the game. I kind of told him sorry for yelling at him during the game. He told me he didn't mind that, what bothered him was the other coach who was constantly in his ear every trip down the court. I never even heard the other coach, but the ref went on about his constant whining.

Here's my take as a former basketball official: You can ask questions (in a respectful manner) all night long. You can question my judgment (in a respectful manner) all night long. The tipping point is when you start questioning me on the rules. The amount of coaches out there at the high school level that don't know the rules baffles me. And then they want to question you on those rules?!?! That's what drove me mad as an official.

I'll also say this; when some coaches questioned me, I listened more than when other coaches questioned me. I'm not going to say any names, but the opinion of some coaches was more weighted in my book than the opinion of other coaches. Why? Because some coaches will question EVERY SINGLE PLAY. That gets real old, real fast.

jmo

 

This may be true, but that's a two way street. Especially the non varsity guys. Can't tell you the # of times when I've seen JV or freshman guys simply not have sufficient knowledge of the game... Granted some of it might've been tough calls, but I've seen guys award bonus FT's after charges.... #cmonman

I find that if you don't personalize it, you're generally OK. I can say "That's a terrible call" and get away with it. If I say "You're terrible", I'm gonna be making an early trip to the bus.

 

This is what I've heard also.

JW' date=' personally I think working officials is a bit overblown. The really good ones aren't going to be affected by it. But, this has turned into a decent thread. I winced at your first post, as it had nothing to do with working a ref IMO. Just typical NFL game talk. In basketball, some refs don't mind being called by their first name, others despise it. I've seem refs at the freshman and JV level whack a guy for that. Also, just because you are not "getting personal" does not mean you get to scream, "that's a terrible call," necessarily. Tone and demeanor mean a lot as well. Knowing the rules goes a long way, and some coaches take advantage of that. Most good refs will talk with coaches, as long as both parties are willing to listen. It's a two way street with that. Always understand sometimes your team fouls too, even if you wish they didn't. I've never met a good ref who wants to whack a coach or player. The bad ones may be quick to do it because they are insecure, but the good ones will listen if you think your team is getting disadvantaged. As others have mentioned, begging on every possession or yelling on every play gets very old very fast. Choose your arguments. My one cent.[/quote']

 

As is often the case Sandman nails it.

Here's where I stand as a guy that has coached a lot of games at a lot of different levels.

 

I tell my kids to not speak or gesture negatively towards the referee. However, it's part of my job to represent the view point of myself and my team. Now, if the kid is begging for a call or upset about something stupid, I'll tell him to play or take them out. But if they have a point, I'm going to let the official know.

 

The best approach I've had an official take with me is when they let me know "hey coach, this is what I saw" because at least I know where they are coming from then. I've told them after that 'well I disagree,' but at least I know. What I never did like was "I didn't see it coach" because it begged for me to respond with "Well what are you out there for then?" which was overly negative, but that is a coach's thought in the heat of the moment. However, "I only saw _______" I am receptive to because it explains a point of view.

 

The issues I've had with officials are a result of a few things:

1. Don't know the rules (I think this is cheating the kids)

2. Don't communicate well

3. Plainly not giving their best effort (out of position, not sharp or seemingly 'not into' the game, etc.)

 

The T's I've gotten, I've either basically been asking for out of frustration, or because one of those three things are happening,and I let the official know that I'm not happy about it.

 

I have had one time where the last play I felt a kid was fouled shooting and it went uncalled in a one point game as time expired. I was rather animated to let the official know my thoughts on it before he could reach the locker room. To this day, I'm sure the kid was fouled. However, I was out of line in the way I addressed it, and the following week, I took the steps to find the official's contact information, and apologized for my actions. Do I think I should have let him know that I believe the call was blown? Sure. But it's all in the way you go about things.

Tone and demeanor mean a lot as well.

 

Knowing the rules goes a long way, and some coaches take advantage of that.

Choose your arguments.

 

 

So Sandman, how should I handle this situation. It has happened to me three times in the last five years and each time was in a close game. My team was taking the ball out under our own basketball. The ref gives the ball to my in-bounder and starts to count. When the ref counted to 4, he blew his whistle and said "Three Seconds in the lane on White." That particular call is against the rules because hte ball was never in bounded. How do I say "That is not a rule," in a way that is respectful but quick enough so that it is still a correctable error. If the ref refuses to acknowledge it and tells me to sit down, how do I react? What if its a tie game in the last minute?

So Sandman' date=' how should I handle this situation. It has happened to me three times in the last five years and each time was in a close game. My team was taking the ball out under our own basketball. The ref gives the ball to my in-bounder and starts to count. When the ref counted to 4, he blew his whistle and said "Three Seconds in the lane on White." That particular call is against the rules because hte ball was never in bounded. How do I say "That is not a rule," in a way that is respectful but quick enough so that it is still a correctable error. If the ref refuses to acknowledge it and tells me to sit down, how do I react? What if its a tie game in the last minute?[/quote']

 

 

Please tell me you are not talking about KHSAA officials.

This may be true, but that's a two way street. Especially the non varsity guys. Can't tell you the # of times when I've seen JV or freshman guys simply not have sufficient knowledge of the game... Granted some of it might've been tough calls, but I've seen guys award bonus FT's after charges.... #cmonman

 

That's why they are working non-Varsity games.

One thing I'll say as someone who played a number of sports growing up and still try to play in rec-type leagues when I get the chance: there's nothing better than having a good official, especially when you've seen a spectrum of them.

Please tell me you are not talking about KHSAA officials.

 

JV Ref. 8th region.

That's why they are working non-Varsity games.

 

So that means they should get guys that don't know the rules?

 

Tell that to the kid that will never play above JV in his life.

In my coaching career, every technical I've ever received has been intentional. Cussing at a referee is automatic in most cases.

 

I've gotten techs for telling a ref they needed a new hobby and offering to loan one my contacts.

 

Having said that, every GOOD official will listen to a coach. I always state my point, hear theirs, and just worry about coaching my team. I've seen over time that being respectful gets you further than anything else, especially with the college refs who call bigger AAU events.

 

My point being, good coaches and good refs don't worry about crossing the line. The best officials are the ones you can talk with all game and shake their hand afterwards. I spent multiple years as a referee myself and have an appreciation for the job.

 

At the end of the day, the best refs have a negligible impact on the game because they call consistently from start to finish every game.