July 18, 201412 yr Author It's been an interesting exercise, reading the "pro gun" sites and their analysis of Everytown.org. :lol:
July 18, 201412 yr 2. In the even that the meds are the collective factor, what happens if we take the guns away totally. They're not even available. Are these people not as likely to snap with something else? Automobile. Dozer. Axe. Sledgehammer. Machete. I'm certainly not an anti-gun advocate, but that seems like a very poor argument. It's got to be much easier to defend yourself against an axe, sledgehammer, and machete. You see the guy coming, you can at least do your best to run away. Can't really say the same about a gun.
July 18, 201412 yr I'm certainly not an anti-gun advocate, but that seems like a very poor argument. It's got to be much easier to defend yourself against an axe, sledgehammer, and machete. You see the guy coming, you can at least do your best to run away. Can't really say the same about a gun. The argument has nothing to do with guns. The point is that chemically unstable people will commit these crimes in another manner even if you destroy every gun ever made. Again, let's find out the real problem.
July 18, 201412 yr It appears Michael Bloomberg is the major financial backer, putting $50M of his personal fortune behind it. Source is a site opposed to the movement, gunssavelives.net Lots of money in play. gunssavelives.net also hides behind a proxy. Registrant Name: WHOISGUARD PROTECTED Registrant Organization: WHOISGUARD, INC. Registrant Street: P.O. BOX 0823-03411 Registrant City: PANAMA Registrant State/Province: PANAMA When it comes to these advocate websites they should be more open about who is really backing them - on both sides.
July 18, 201412 yr • Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public. • Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded. • Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event. • Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac. • Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft. • Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days. • Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment. • Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others. • A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school. • Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded.. • A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another. • Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others. • TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates. • Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat. • James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers. • Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania • Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California • Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times. • Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman. • Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister. • Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications. • Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants. • Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled. • Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself. • Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002. • Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara's parents said ".... the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil...") • Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth's father could not accept his son's death and killed himself.) • Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family's detached garage. • Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet. • Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill. • Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms. • A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased. • Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and "other drugs for the conditions." • Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine. • Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system. • Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide. • Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone. • Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school. Missing from list... 3 of 4 known to have taken these same meds.... • What drugs was Jared Lee Loughner on, age 21...... killed 6 people and injuring 14 others in Tuscon, Az? • What drugs was James Eagan Holmes on, age 24..... killed 12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado? • What drugs was Jacob Tyler Roberts on, age 22, killed 2 injured 1, Clackamas Or? • What drugs was Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 and wounded 2 in Newtown Ct? Anything in here worth discussing?
July 18, 201412 yr Author Lots of money in play. gunssavelives.net also hides behind a proxy. Registrant Name: WHOISGUARD PROTECTED Registrant Organization: WHOISGUARD, INC. Registrant Street: P.O. BOX 0823-03411 Registrant City: PANAMA Registrant State/Province: PANAMA When it comes to these advocate websites they should be more open about who is really backing them - on both sides. I agree. The info on the first site I mentioned that everytown.org changed the registration, that it was initially open. The Google search I did, did bring up quite a few references from referencing Bloomberg's involvement. The second site I mentioned mentions that the URL for Mayors Against Illegal Guns now points to everytown.org.
July 18, 201412 yr Ritalin side effects: [h=2]Common Side Effects[/h] Addiction Nervousness including agitation, anxiety and irritability Trouble sleeping (insomnia) Decreased appetite Headache Stomach ache Nausea Dizziness Heart palpitations [h=2]Other Serious Side Effects Include[/h] Slowing of growth (height and weight) in children Seizures, mainly in patients with a history of seizures Eyesight changes or blurred vision [h=2]Less Common Side Effects[/h] High blood pressure Rapid pulse rate (and other heart problems) Tolerance (constant need to raise the dose) Feelings of suspicion and paranoia Visual hallucinations (seeing things that are not there) Depression Cocaine craving Dermatoses (infected or diseased skin) Urinary tract infection Infection or viral infection Elevated ALT enzyme levels in the blood (signaling liver damage) Prozac side effects: Prozac can increase the risk of suicidal thoughts and behavior in children, teenagers, and young adults. Your healthcare provider will monitor you closely for clinical worsening and suicidal or unusual behavior after you start taking Prozac or start a new dose of Prozac. Tell your healthcare provider right away if you experience anxiety, hostility, sleeplessness, restlessness, impulsive or dangerous behavior, or thoughts about suicide or dying; or if you have new symptoms or seem to be feeling worse. More common side effects may include: unusual dreams, sexual problems, loss of appetite, anxiety, weakness, diarrhea, dry mouth, upset stomach, flu-like symptoms, trouble sleeping, nausea, nervousness, sore throat, rash, sinus pain and congestion, drowsiness, sweating, shaking, hot flashes, yawning. Less common side effects may include: Serotonin syndrome (a potentially life-threatening drug reaction that causes the body to have too much serotonin, a chemical produced by the nerve cells) with symptoms such as mental status changes (such as agitation or hallucinations); a fast heartbeat; high or low blood pressure; coordination problems or muscle twitching; muscle stiffness; dizziness; flushing; tremor; seizures; or nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea. Severe allergic reactions with symptoms such as rash, hives, or blisters, alone or with fever or joint pain; trouble breathing; or swelling of your face, tongue, eyes, or mouth. Abnormal bleeding or bruising, especially if you also take blood thinners (such as warfarin), nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) (such as ibuprofen or naproxen), or aspirin. Manic episodes with symptoms such as greatly increased energy, severe trouble sleeping, racing thoughts, reckless behavior, excessive happiness or irritability, or talking more or faster than usual. Low blood sodium (salt) levels with symptoms such as headache, weakness, an unsteady feeling, confusion, problems concentrating or thinking, or memory problems. Seizures or changes in appetite or weight. I could continue with the serotonin drugs, but they all read the same.
July 18, 201412 yr Author Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public. Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded. Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event. Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac. Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft. Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days. Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment. Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others. A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school. Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded.. A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another. Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others. TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates. Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat. James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers. Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) school shooting in El Cajon, California Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times. Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman. Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister. Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications. Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants. Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled. Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself. Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002. Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara's parents said ".... the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil...") Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth's father could not accept his son's death and killed himself.) Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family's detached garage. Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet. Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill. Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms. A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased. Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and "other drugs for the conditions." Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine. Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system. Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School then he committed suicide. Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone. Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school. Missing from list... 3 of 4 known to have taken these same meds.... What drugs was Jared Lee Loughner on, age 21...... killed 6 people and injuring 14 others in Tuscon, Az? What drugs was James Eagan Holmes on, age 24..... killed 12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado? What drugs was Jacob Tyler Roberts on, age 22, killed 2 injured 1, Clackamas Or? What drugs was Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 and wounded 2 in Newtown Ct? Anything in here worth discussing? Of course! But I think it's a PART of this study, not the focus of the study. I think the differences here are that 1) the focus of the study I linked was "mass shootings" as defined by the FBI. 2) the study linked focused on 4 years of recent incidents for which there was official data, and 2 years, 2013 and 2014, used media reports. In fairness, the incidents described that had no official data do not apply any assumptions, instead noting "unknown" in areas without answers. I agree that there is evidence that mental illness and the drugs used to treat mental illness are a high number. But as to this particular study, I see the issue of domestic violence being a greater proportion of mass shootings to be the surprising statistic.
July 18, 201412 yr Of course! But I think it's a PART of this study, not the focus of the study. I think the differences here are that 1) the focus of the study I linked was "mass shootings" as defined by the FBI. 2) the study linked focused on 4 years of recent incidents for which there was official data, and 2 years, 2013 and 2014, used media reports. In fairness, the incidents described that had no official data do not apply any assumptions, instead noting "unknown" in areas without answers. I agree that there is evidence that mental illness and the drugs used to treat mental illness are a high number. But as to this particular study, I see the issue of domestic violence being a greater proportion of mass shootings to be the surprising statistic. But the point I'm trying, and have been trying, to make is that they haven't made any connection to these meds and their side effects in your study. My whole point is that the aspect of mental health as a factor in this study is very weak. In my opinion, it's the MAJOR factor. I don't for one second disagree with the domestic violence point. Not in the slightest. But in the end, don't we have to try to find out the real source of the outbursts? I'm sure it's not a single answer, these are collective and cummulative. My only issue is that the FBI info will never include the meds these kids were on. Ever. I have already explained previously why I think that. And I think any study, regardless of slant over the 2nd amendment is incomplete without addressing these medications.
July 18, 201412 yr Author But the point I'm trying, and have been trying, to make is that they haven't made any connection to these meds and their side effects in your study. My whole point is that the aspect of mental health as a factor in this study is very weak. In my opinion, it's the MAJOR factor. I don't for one second disagree with the domestic violence point. Not in the slightest. But in the end, don't we have to try to find out the real source of the outbursts? I'm sure it's not a single answer, these are collective and cummulative. My only issue is that the FBI info will never include the meds these kids were on. Ever. I have already explained previously why I think that. And I think any study, regardless of slant over the 2nd amendment is incomplete without addressing these medications. Different studies IMO. I don't believe this study is meant to be comprehensive, but more of a high level view of mass shootings.
July 18, 201412 yr Author But the point I'm trying, and have been trying, to make is that they haven't made any connection to these meds and their side effects in your study. My whole point is that the aspect of mental health as a factor in this study is very weak. In my opinion, it's the MAJOR factor. I don't for one second disagree with the domestic violence point. Not in the slightest. But in the end, don't we have to try to find out the real source of the outbursts? I'm sure it's not a single answer, these are collective and cummulative. My only issue is that the FBI info will never include the meds these kids were on. Ever. I have already explained previously why I think that. And I think any study, regardless of slant over the 2nd amendment is incomplete without addressing these medications. The study linked also shows that mass shootings, as defined by the FBI, are committed by adults, not kids.
July 18, 201412 yr OK...so....about the rest of the info in the study...? Any thoughts? I'll see if I can find out more about the organization. The majority of these are family shoots - very sad situations. The seem pre-planned and pre-calculated. The 'report' has an obvious agenda - show that the people doing the act could legally own a gun and highlight locations that were not 'gun free'. But it did not go deeper - economic situations, racial make-up, if the shooter was involved in other criminal activity such as drug trade, crime trend in the neighborhood or location of occurrence, etc. The agenda is that of fairly broad 'gun control' though we know that gun violence is very concentrated in certain domains in the country - and no one seems to what to address those. It also attempts to defined 'not a gun free zone' as broadly as it can to reach its agenda. The Giffords shooting may not technically have been a gun free zone. But they intentionally did not have armed security at this high profile event with high profile attendees. The Hassan shooting shows the government had data that he was dangerous - and failed to act. So government 'tracking' of guns and individuals who present a danger seems completely worthless if there is no preventive action. So it is somewhat an argument against more laws doing much good to stop these events. Certainly everyday.org and gunsssaveliives.net are at extreme and opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue. If people want to look at this objectively then get ALL the surrounding circumstances and facts in the 'report' and discuss the common threads and common trends. In my view - guns are more a symptom
July 18, 201412 yr The study linked also shows that mass shootings, as defined by the FBI, are committed by adults, not kids. Same issues. Same chemical deal with serotonin uptake inhibitors. Age doesn't matter. Only difference in kids is that there are only a couple that are FDA approved and those are very poorly titered.
July 18, 201412 yr Different studies IMO. I don't believe this study is meant to be comprehensive, but more of a high level view of mass shootings. How are they different if we are trying to find an answer? Anti gun folks support your study. Pro gun folks support mine. The answer is in the middle and we will never find it at that rate.
July 18, 201412 yr Author The majority of these are family shoots - very sad situations. The seem pre-planned and pre-calculated. The 'report' has an obvious agenda - show that the people doing the act could legally own a gun and highlight locations that were not 'gun free'. But it did not go deeper - economic situations, racial make-up, if the shooter was involved in other criminal activity such as drug trade, crime trend in the neighborhood or location of occurrence, etc. The agenda is that of fairly broad 'gun control' though we know that gun violence is very concentrated in certain domains in the country - and no one seems to what to address those. It also attempts to defined 'not a gun free zone' as broadly as it can to reach its agenda. The Giffords shooting may not technically have been a gun free zone. But they intentionally did not have armed security at this high profile event with high profile attendees. The Hassan shooting shows the government had data that he was dangerous - and failed to act. So government 'tracking' of guns and individuals who present a danger seems completely worthless if there is no preventive action. So it is somewhat an argument against more laws doing much good to stop these events. Certainly everyday.org and gunsssaveliives.net are at extreme and opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue. If people want to look at this objectively then get ALL the surrounding circumstances and facts in the 'report' and discuss the common threads and common trends. In my view - guns are more a symptom Everytown.org. I agree with you about needing all the facts. But I feel the value in this study is: 1) Mass shootings statistically are not anonymous 2) Gun free zones, or not gun free zones, the domestic violence issue doesn't matter 3) Domestic violence is a HUGE ISSUE, and doesn't get nearly enough attention or resources, given the number of shootings and abuse that doesn't meet the criteria to include in this study.
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