Holmes' 3 losses are to:

 

Long Island Lutheran (#33 Nationally, #1 in NY

Toronto St Michael's College School (Currently #1 NATIONALLY in Canada)

Covcath

 

Wayne Co isn't beating LI Lutheran or St Michael's...I say that with confidence. Too much size and athleticism across the board. Lutheran is on the same level as Ballard, if not better. St Michael's is #1 in Canada for a reason.

 

Have you seen Covcath this year to say with confidence that Wayne Co would beat them? Covcath is a very good team and playing as well as anyone in the state right now.

 

I'm not against Wayne Co and their success. I'm just not a fan of people saying they should be ranked higher or are on the same level as some of the teams ranked ahead of them when they have played nobody to prove it.

 

I really don't understand why of all the teams ahead of WC, you continually want to reference Holmes and their players whether it be a team or player thread. Keep underestimating them because of their loss to Covcath.

 

There are a handful of teams in KY that can/would beat Holmes...IMO, Wayne Co isn't one of those teams. Hopefully we get a chance to find out for sure in March.

With all due respect, your over-inflation of Holmes is an annual theme. I know you know them intimately, and we love the coverage, but your Holmes evaluation is tainted. And that's the passion we know and come to expect from you. I, for one, enjoy it. But I can tell you this much, I have not seen Wayne Co this season. However, I have it on excellent authority that they're better than last years bunch, and they were solid to say the least. My source I inherited, and I'll leave it at that. I've found him reliable and beyond reproach.

 

For the record, I think on a given night there are two dozen teams that could hang one on Holmes.

With all due respect, your over-inflation of Holmes is an annual theme. I know you know them intimately, and we love the coverage, but your Holmes evaluation is tainted. And that's the passion we know and come to expect from you. I, for one, enjoy it. But I can tell you this much, I have not seen Wayne Co this season. However, I have it on excellent authority that they're better than last years bunch, and they were solid to say the least. My source I inherited, and I'll leave it at that. I've found him reliable and beyond reproach.

 

For the record, I think on a given night there are two dozen teams that could hang one on Holmes.

 

All fair points. I'm not over-inflating them, though. I said in my post that there are a handful of teams that can and would beat Holmes. I have them ranked 3rd in my region rankings.

 

My opinion of Wayne Co also comes from talking to coaches who have seen them this year along with some of the other top teams in the state.

 

I guess we will find out more once they start playing some of the "tougher" teams on their schedule.

Agree or disagree?

 

I might move Doss up some.

 

In my experience, some of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th best in Louisville types that aren't known to fans across the state because they haven't made a state tournament are usually underrated in state wide rankings while teams out in the state are a little overrated.

 

Doss lost to Ballard by 10. Sure, they lost, but how many teams in the State could play Ballard within 10?

 

Also, in my experience, while not always true, it's safe to say that Louisville schools playing out in the state don't get many calls. Look at who their losses have come to and where those were played. Take those games out and put them on a neutral floor and they are within 10 and 14 of Ballard. That tells me all that I need to know.

I might move Doss up some.

 

In my experience, some of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th best in Louisville types that aren't known to fans across the state because they haven't made a state tournament are usually underrated in state wide rankings while teams out in the state are a little overrated.

 

Doss lost to Ballard by 10. Sure, they lost, but how many teams in the State could play Ballard within 10?

 

Also, in my experience, while not always true, it's safe to say that Louisville schools playing out in the state don't get many calls. Look at who their losses have come to and where those were played. Take those games out and put them on a neutral floor and they are within 10 and 14 of Ballard. That tells me all that I need to know.

 

Doss went through a period where they lost to Lexington Catholic, Lincoln County and West Jessamine. All of those losses were on a neutral court. They actually beat Southwestern and Pulaski County on their home courts. It's hard to move a team up in the rankings based on how they did in games that they lost.

 

Wayne Co isn't beating LI Lutheran or St Michael's...I say that with confidence. Too much size and athleticism across the board. Lutheran is on the same level as Ballard, if not better. St Michael's is #1 in Canada for a reason.

 

 

Losses to either of those teams wouldn't help or hurt Wayne Co's ranking, just like they don't help or hurt Holmes. I don't think those games had any bearing on Holmes ranking.

 

Have you seen Covcath this year to say with confidence that Wayne Co would beat them? Covcath is a very good team and playing as well as anyone in the state right now.

 

I have not seen Covington Catholic this year. Have you seen Wayne Co this year to say with confidence that they would beat Wayne Co?

I wouldn't guarantee Wayne Co would beat Covington Catholic, but I think if Wayne played them at home, they would win more often than not. I think Wayne would likely have won every game that Holmes won.

 

I'm not against Wayne Co and their success. I'm just not a fan of people saying they should be ranked higher or are on the same level as some of the teams ranked ahead of them when they have played nobody to prove it.

 

This is exactly my argument against Holmes. Yes, they've played one tougher in-state team than Wayne Co has, but they lost that game. I would argue that Wayne Co's 3 best wins are at least close to as good as any of Holmes wins.

It sounds like you think because Holmes has played better teams they should be ranked higher. I would argue that anyone can play great teams, beating them is what moves you up.

 

I really don't understand why of all the teams ahead of WC, you continually want to reference Holmes and their players whether it be a team or player thread. Keep underestimating them because of their loss to Covcath.

 

Two reasons I reference Holmes is this regard.

First is that I believe they have the weakest resume of any of the top 11 teams. I could make an argument for them over Montgomery Co, CovCath, Newport Central Catholic and Lafayette, but I don't think those arguments are nearly as strong, so I went with my strongest point.

 

Second, I believe the people who are wanting Wayne Co dropped are mostly northern Kentucky people. I assume those individuals are well acquainted with Holmes, so showing a comparison for how Wayne Co has a stronger resume than Holmes should give a better idea of how good Wayne Co. is.

 

I don't recall making any reference against a Holmes player. What did I say against them? I have nothing against any of them, and no reason to say anything negative about them.

 

I'm not even trying to argue that Wayne Co is a better team than Holmes. Just that based on results this season they deserve to be ranked higher.

As with any rankings the top group of 1-5 is pretty easy. Once you get past the top 5 you are gonna have 10 teams who are pretty close and on a given night could beat each other depending on matchups. After that the 15-50 teams are pretty close.

 

I have not seen Wayne play 20 times like Ole Kentuckian but have seen them play 13 games and they are solid. Woods is one of the best scorers I have seen in sometime. Blevins and Stearns are the two Sophomores that people have spoken on here that could also get 30 on you and they can, they have proven it time and time again. Perkins is the reason Lincoln will have and has had problems with Wayne cause he is a great defender and very quick and will guard Taylor. The freshman Gillispie, who is 6-6 has emerged as a great addition to the line up, is very athletic and a formidable shot blocker and rebounder. The X factor in all of this is the coach. Coach Woods is one of the best coaches in the state. I'm not saying to lock them up as 12th region champs by no means, but they are a very good basketball team. You don't win 20 in a row and not be.

Doss went through a period where they lost to Lexington Catholic, Lincoln County and West Jessamine. All of those losses were on a neutral court. They actually beat Southwestern and Pulaski County on their home courts. It's hard to move a team up in the rankings based on how they did in games that they lost.

 

Know they were on a neutral court, but it was still the principle of a Louisville team going out in the state to play a team in their backyard (that region's refs in all but the Lex Cath game).

Know they were on a neutral court, but it was still the principle of a Louisville team going out in the state to play a team in their backyard (that region's refs in all but the Lex Cath game).

 

 

Good teams adjust and still win. I hear this excuse for Louisville teams all of the time but at the same time other schools have to go outside of their own backyard as well. The good teams win wherever the game is and don't need refs to justify their greatness.

Good teams adjust and still win. I hear this excuse for Louisville teams all of the time but at the same time other schools have to go outside of their own backyard as well. The good teams win wherever the game is and don't need refs to justify their greatness.

 

Eh, I just think there's some validity to it. There's some bias against Louisville schools when they go out and play in the state and it kind of shows. I've personally witnessed it to varying degrees. That's just me though.

Eh, I just think there's some validity to it. There's some bias against Louisville schools when they go out and play in the state and it kind of shows. I've personally witnessed it to varying degrees. That's just me though.

 

My personal take is that everyone focuses on the top teams from the metro areas (Louisville & Lexington in particular) because they have winning records and it usually is the case that the Regional Champion will come from one of those teams (and often the State Champion).

 

However, in the 5+ decades I've been observing our game (and attending State Tournaments - not all, but a great many) I have noted that of those metro teams that have .500 (plus or minus) records, many if not most have as much talent as most of the higher ranked non-metro teams from out in the state (not necessarily including NKY, Bowling Green, etc.). Those teams are .500 teams because they may not be as deep in talent or have good team chemistry or the best of coaching, however they are capable of beating a majority of teams out in the state because that talent can rise up and kick your butt when least expected.

 

In fact, out of the top thirty teams in the state (however you determine that which I certainly don't know how) I figure an inordinate number of the teams should be from Louisville, Lexington, NKY, Bowling Green, etc. Huge numbers (of student athletes) and tough inter-city competition makes for a high number of outstanding players.

 

But because Louisville & Lexington's huge talent pool only gets two and one representatives in the State Tournament we all tend to discount the mid-range teams from those areas. Plus if the Herald Leader or Courier Journal allowed their rating systems to crank out rankings that reflected this, then who out in the state would want to buy a newspaper that wasn't listing our (those of from out in the state) teams among the top teams.

 

Bottom line, as a long-time supporter of teams that aren't near a metro area I know that if our teams had to play so much outstanding talent on a regular basis, one of two things or perhaps both would happen. Our record would not be near so glossy (in ANY case) and/or we would become a better & tougher team due to having played better competition.

 

Regarding officials. When you are home you will typically get more calls go your way. When you are perceived as having the better team (especially if you are highly thought of) you will get more calls go your way. When you are playing a team from another region, the team who is the home team will typically have a big edge because the home team coach rates those officials, not the visiting coach. Officials are human and they react much as any of us do - to whatever feels right to them and it can very well be totally unintentional or subconscious. Great officials are better able to overcome such biases, but there are about as many great officials as there are great coaches (draw your own conclusion-)

 

Typically metro schools play a tougher brand of ball because they have more big, fast, quick athletes than do most of the teams out in the state. You go play in their region and you have suddenly entered into a different world as to how the game is officiated and what is allowed. Correspondingly if the metro schools leave their region and go out into the state they can usually expect that the reverse will be true. Less rough play and carrying the ball. All of which is why any team who intends on advancing when & if they make it to the State had better have played some metro ball in the 6th, 7th or 11th regions (and elsewhere) because that's the way it will be called there.

Edited January 30, 201412 yr by Randy Parker
Typo

Regarding officials. When you are home you will typically get more calls go your way. When you are perceived as having the better team (especially if you are highly thought of) you will get more calls go your way. When you are playing a team from another region, the team who is the home team will typically have a big edge because the home team coach rates those officials, not the visiting coach. Officials are human and they react much as any of us do - to whatever feels right to them and it can very well be totally unintentional or subconscious. Great officials are better able to overcome such biases, but there are about as many great officials as there are great coaches (draw your own conclusion-) This should be a thread on it's own!

Regarding officials. When you are home you will typically get more calls go your way. When you are perceived as having the better team (especially if you are highly thought of) you will get more calls go your way. When you are playing a team from another region, the team who is the home team will typically have a big edge because the home team coach rates those officials, not the visiting coach. Officials are human and they react much as any of us do - to whatever feels right to them and it can very well be totally unintentional or subconscious. Great officials are better able to overcome such biases, but there are about as many great officials as there are great coaches (draw your own conclusion-) This should be a thread on it's own!

 

Was replying to following comment earlier in this thread -

 

Also, in my experience, while not always true, it's safe to say that Louisville schools playing out in the state don't get many calls. Look at who their losses have come to and where those were played. Take those games out and put them on a neutral floor and they are within 10 and 14 of Ballard. That tells me all that I need to know.

 

Once you bring them into the discussion I think the topic is fair game to comment on. Wasn't looking to disagree, rather to emphasize that all teams are typically subject to subjective officiating, not just metro teams playing out in the state.

 

Guess I should have pasted the post I was responding to, yeah? Sorry.

Regarding officials. When you are home you will typically get more calls go your way. When you are perceived as having the better team (especially if you are highly thought of) you will get more calls go your way. When you are playing a team from another region, the team who is the home team will typically have a big edge because the home team coach rates those officials, not the visiting coach. Officials are human and they react much as any of us do - to whatever feels right to them and it can very well be totally unintentional or subconscious. Great officials are better able to overcome such biases, but there are about as many great officials as there are great coaches (draw your own conclusion-)

 

Typically metro schools play a tougher brand of ball because they have more big, fast, quick athletes than do most of the teams out in the state. You go play in their region and you have suddenly entered into a different world as to how the game is officiated and what is allowed. Correspondingly if the metro schools leave their region and go out into the state they can usually expect that the reverse will be true. Less rough play and carrying the ball. All of which is why any team who intends on advancing when & if they make it to the State had better have played some metro ball in the 6th, 7th or 11th regions (and elsewhere) because that's the way it will be called there.

 

 

Great post (the whole thing, not just the part I selected).

 

In my years of watching, I think that there's just some extra animosity when a Louisville school goes on the road, especially anywhere east of Lexington.

 

If nothing else, I think we can agree that the refs might be consistent in what they call and don't call, but they're calling in such a way that every touch is a foul and the team who is bigger, stronger, faster, and plays more physical (i.e., typically going to be your Louisville school because that's the way games are called in the 6th & 7th) will be at a disadvantage.

 

Oh yea, again, great post. You hit the nail on the head.

Was replying to following comment earlier in this thread -

 

 

 

Once you bring them into the discussion I think the topic is fair game to comment on. Wasn't looking to disagree, rather to emphasize that all teams are typically subject to subjective officiating, not just metro teams playing out in the state.

 

Guess I should have pasted the post I was responding to, yeah? Sorry.

 

It's all good. :thumb:

Great post (the whole thing, not just the part I selected).

 

In my years of watching, I think that there's just some extra animosity when a Louisville school goes on the road, especially anywhere east of Lexington.

 

If nothing else, I think we can agree that the refs might be consistent in what they call and don't call, but they're calling in such a way that every touch is a foul and the team who is bigger, stronger, faster, and plays more physical (i.e., typically going to be your Louisville school because that's the way games are called in the 6th & 7th) will be at a disadvantage.

 

Oh yea, again, great post. You hit the nail on the head.

 

About the bold and when you play in Louisville, it's a game of no blood, no foul!

 

But what is funny and I have gotten slammed by some on this subject, they all work off the same rule book! Go figure:idunno:!