Keep your head in your stats hole and pay attention to the numbers that you like. Ignore any numbers that don't prove your point. And please don't watch a game because if you see what happens with your own eyes, you might not like it. I love sabermetrics as much as anyone and do consider those numbers, but like any statistics you have to look at all the numbers plus pay attention to more than just the numbers.

 

For me, MVP isn't just about numbers. Chemistry, intangibles and what goes on between the ears every night are huge in baseball. I think what Phillips has brought to the team this year has been a major reason for their success.

 

I watch every game. What my eyes tell me is Votto is as responsible for a lot of BP's RBI as Phillips is. Look at it this way. Phillips has been wildly successful this season at knocking guys in, especially with 2 outs. Yet, opposing managers and pitchers would still rather pitch to him than deal with Votto. It's clear they think Votto is the more valuable, dangerous guy, and they're 100% correct.

 

That's the only thing you talk about with Phillips. "He's got 94 RBI, so he's team MVP". Ignore the multitude of stats and numbers that show you're clearly wrong.

 

You talk about what goes on between the ears, and yet still say Phillips is MVP? Yeah, those numerous baserunning blunders (probably leads the league) sure are indicitive of a smart baseball player.

Phillips has RBI because he is batting .362 with runners in scoring position, far and away the best on the team. He has been clutch all year. He got thrown into the middle of the order and has done what a 4 hitter should do - drive in runs and it isn't just because of opportunties. He is making it happen. He has been having great at bats all year. He is batting .289 when he has two strikes on him, also by far the best on the team. You guys are not giving him his due credit. I can see a legit argument for Votto. But to say Phillips isn't even close to being MVP is wrong.

 

While I love the fact that BP is 11 for 17 with the bases loaded and has been great with runners in scoring position this year, the idea of 'clutch hitting' has been proven to be false. Basically, over the course of building up enough at bat in those situations to be relevant, everyone will hit a 'hot' streak, but will counteract it with a 'cold' streak. At the end of the day, in those 'clutch' situations, the most clutch hitters of all time over the course of their career hit within 5 points of their batting average.

 

Basically, at some point, that 'clutch hitting' will even out. Heck, from Votto's MVP season up until last year everyone in Reds' country was saying how Votto is the 'most clutch' guy on the team. Now everyone is chastising him for talking walks in those same situations. Why? Because the pitching he is getting is different.

 

I know some people think it is bologna. But I don't see how they argue with those particular numbers. It's not even all based on sabermetrics. A lot of it is just compiling batting averages (a traditional statistic) over certain situations over time.

 

BP is great for the club because he's a do everything 2nd baseman that can hit anywhere in the lineup without everyone throwing a fit about it, and he's a good locker room presence (arguably). But Joey is, for all intents and purposes, the 2nd best hitter in the game the last four plus seasons.

Votto and Latos are the team MVP's and it's not close.

 

This....a thousand times THIS.

I watch every game.

 

I know you do. I see you in the game threads.

 

What my eyes tell me is Votto is as responsible for a lot of BP's RBI as Phillips is. The only person responsible for driving in those runs is Phillips.

Look at it this way. Phillips has been wildly successful this season at knocking guys in, especially with 2 outs. Thank you for giving him that credit.

Yet, opposing managers and pitchers would still rather pitch to him than deal with Votto. I agree with tis. Votto is clearly a better hitter than BP. Buyt we are talking about MVP, not best hitter on the team.It's clear they think Votto is the more valuable, dangerous guy, and they're 100% correct.

 

That's the only thing you talk about with Phillips. "He's got 94 RBI, so he's team MVP". Ignore the multitude of stats and numbers that show you're clearly wrong.

The most important stat in baseball is runs. Phillips has driven in more than anyone else on the team. He has hit better than anyone on the team in clutch situations. This year, if the season depended on one guy driving in someone on base to win the World Series, I would rather have BP up there than Votto.

 

You talk about what goes on between the ears, and yet still say Phillips is MVP? I am talking team, not BP between the ears. I am talking about the team head set. Yeah, those numerous baserunning blunders (probably leads the league) sure are indicitive of a smart baseball player.BP irritates the heck out of me when he pulls one of those blunders or doesn't run out a ball the way I think he should. But the fact is, Votto has been just as bad this year with the baserunning blunders, if not worse.

 

Responses in blue.

 

If you asked me to pick one player on the team to come back next year, I choose Votto over Phillips and that isn't close. If you ask me who is this year's MVP based on what he has done for the team this year, at this point in time I go with BP over Votto.

Responses in blue.

 

If you asked me to pick one player on the team to come back next year, I choose Votto over Phillips and that isn't close. If you ask me who is this year's MVP based on what he has done for the team this year, at this point in time I go with BP over Votto.

 

I'm baffled by how you can say that Votto is clearly a better hitter but then say that if the season depended on one guy driving in someone to win the WS, you would rather have BP than Votto. But qualify it by saying 'this year.' As if this year somehow BP is a better hitter than Votto 'this year' but no other year.

I'm baffled by how you can say that Votto is clearly a better hitter but then say that if the season depended on one guy driving in someone to win the WS, you would rather have BP than Votto. But qualify it by saying 'this year.' As if this year somehow BP is a better hitter than Votto 'this year' but no other year.

 

I don't like what I am seeing out of Votto in clutch situations this year. He seems to be brain cramping. The exact opposite for BP. In those clutch situations, he has been money.

 

One of the best things about Votto in previous years was how he handled an AB when he was behind in the count and especially with 2 strikes. It almost seemed like the pitcher was actually at a disadvantage when Votto had two strikes on him. I am not seeing that this year. BP has been awesome with two strikes on him.

 

I think BP doesn't concentrate hard enough and work hard enough when he is up there with no one on. Votto is relentless ... every pitch of every AB. If BP would be that intense, his numbers would be better.

 

To summarize, I like what I have seen this year from BP in clutch situations more than Votto.

So in a crucial late game situation in the postseason, you'd rather see BP and his robust .264 avg and .312 OBP step up to the plate than Votto and his .317 avg and .437 OBP??? I can't comprehend that. There's zero logic to it.

So in a crucial late game situation in the postseason, you'd rather see BP and his robust .264 avg and .312 OBP step up to the plate than Votto and his .317 avg and .437 OBP??? I can't comprehend that. There's zero logic to it.

 

You are sooooooo closed minded it is irritating. One stat ... Phillips batting .362 with RISP. Does that mean nothing to you? If you don't see that logic, God help you.

You are sooooooo closed minded it is irritating. One stat ... Phillips batting .362 with RISP. Does that mean nothing to you? If you don't see that logic, God help you.

 

The most meaningful stat in baseball is OBP.

Edited August 23, 201313 yr by UKMustangFan

The most meaningful stat in baseball is OBP. Your constant arguments devoid of any logic is truly outstanding. I don't know how you do it.

 

Excuse me, I am going to move over and talk this wall now. :banghead:

 

But before I go, I really don't appreciate the derogatory comments you include in your posts.

 

:walk:

Excuse me, I am going to move over and talk this wall now. :banghead:

 

But before I go, I really don't appreciate the derogatory comments you include in your posts.

 

:walk:

 

Saying there's no logic in your argument isn't derogatory. I'll play your RISP game though.

 

RISP: BP - OBP of .418, Votto - OBP of .483.

 

Game over.

Saying there's no logic in your argument isn't derogatory. I'll play your RISP game though.

 

RISP: BP - OBP of .418, Votto - OBP of .483.

 

Game over.

 

If I want someone to get on base, I will go with Votto. If I want someone to drive in a run, I go with Phillips.

I don't like what I am seeing out of Votto in clutch situations this year. He seems to be brain cramping. The exact opposite for BP. In those clutch situations, he has been money.

 

 

This is where the divide in the argument is. VOR is going by what it seems like he is watching. UKMF is looking at the numbers. It's the argument that there is a 'mental' aspect behind the numbers. That perhaps, the outs made with runners on base are more important than just your average at bat with no qualifications.

 

I'd like to see how many hits Votto has with runners on versus how many hits BP has with runners on.

 

Here's the fact of the matter. BP makes more outs than Votto. No matter which way you cut it, not making outs is the name of the game. How many outs do each make with runners on/runners in scoring position? I don't know.

This is where the divide in the argument is. VOR is going by what it seems like he is watching. UKMF is looking at the numbers. It's the argument that there is a 'mental' aspect behind the numbers. That perhaps, the outs made with runners on base are more important than just your average at bat with no qualifications.

 

I'd like to see how many hits Votto has with runners on versus how many hits BP has with runners on.

 

Here's the fact of the matter. BP makes more outs than Votto. No matter which way you cut it, not making outs is the name of the game. How many outs do each make with runners on/runners in scoring position? I don't know.

 

Plus that number I keep throwing out there - BP hitting .362 with runners in scoring postition. BP is 7th in the NL among regulars in that stat.

 

1. Freddie Freeman .442

2. Alan Craig .438

3. Matt Carpenter .400

4. Hanley Ramirez .377

5. Carlos Beltran .371

5. Pablo Sandoval .367

6. Yadier Molina .364

7. Phillips .362

The name of the game is not making outs. Joey Votto is the best in the game (NL) at that. BP is nowhere close.