June 28, 201313 yr Who "provoked use of force" in this case? That is the why point © is the critical one IMO. I would argue Zimmerman following him provoked the confrontation. I also think if Zimmerman was on top of him, point (d) would be called in to question as well.
June 28, 201313 yr If Zimmerman was on top of Mrtin when he shot him then in my mind yes, it negates his self defense argument. However Zimmerman just being on top at some point during the fight does not. I don't think any witness actually saw him on top when the shot was fired did they? They say he was on top of him, then stood up and started pacing back and forth. Why would he be on top of him (TM was face down when GZ got up) after he shot him, if he wasn't when he pulled the trigger?
June 28, 201313 yr IMO, if GZ was on top of TM then that changes things. GZ could have easily gotten up and bolted to his vehicle and taken off. However, GZ being on top of TM contradicts everything that I have heard/read.
June 28, 201313 yr IMO, if GZ was on top of TM then that changes things. GZ could have easily gotten up and bolted to his vehicle and taken off. However, GZ being on top of TM contradicts everything that I have heard/read. Two different witnesses said he was on top (Including one who's credibility hasn't been questioned). She said she couldn't see who was on top, but that the guy on top got up and started pacing back and forth between the trashcans and the body until the cops arrived, and the guy on the bottom was laying face down. Obviously that means GZ was the guy she saw get up.
June 28, 201313 yr Two different witnesses said he was on top (Including one who's credibility hasn't been questioned). She said she couldn't see who was on top, but that the guy on top got up and started pacing back and forth between the trashcans and the body until the cops arrived, and the guy on the bottom was laying face down. Obviously that means GZ was the guy she saw get up. I question how TM was laying face down if he was on the bottom (unless GZ shot him execution style in the back or head and in that case I think the evidence would be pretty clear). To me, TM laying face down points to TM being on top. Plus, the defense hasn't rested yet. There is still a LOT to this case.
June 28, 201313 yr This article gives a pretty good understanding of the law....Sounds like it doesn't apply to this case. It doesn't and I posted a link about why already. Zimmerman is using plain old self defense not SYG.
June 28, 201313 yr I question how TM was laying face down if he was on the bottom (unless GZ shot him execution style in the back or head and in that case I think the evidence would be pretty clear). To me, TM laying face down points to TM being on top. Plus, the defense hasn't rested yet. There is still a LOT to this case. Exactly. The "witnesses" couldn't tell who was who so how do they know who was on top at what time? It's quite possible GZ shot him, TM fell face first and then they saw GZ getting up, looking like he was the person on top. If GZ was on top and TM was face down how did he shoot him in the chest? That's where I thought the one shot was anyways...
June 28, 201313 yr Exactly. The "witnesses" couldn't tell who was who so how do they know who was on top at what time? It's quite possible GZ shot him, TM fell face first and then they saw GZ getting up, looking like he was the person on top. If GZ was on top and TM was face down how did he shoot him in the chest? That's where I thought the one shot was anyways... The lady said he was straddling the guy on the bottom like riding a horse, and that the same person was on top the entire time.
June 28, 201313 yr The lady said he was straddling the guy on the bottom like riding a horse, and that the same person was on top the entire time. So she was watching when the shot occurred? Has any forensic evidence been presented yet?
June 28, 201313 yr That is the why point © is the critical one IMO. I would argue Zimmerman following him provoked the confrontation. I also think if Zimmerman was on top of him, point (d) would be called in to question as well. While I would agree that Zimmerman following him would is reason for Martin to confront Zimmerman it is not reason for Martin to attack Zimmerman.
June 28, 201313 yr The lady said he was straddling the guy on the bottom like riding a horse, and that the same person was on top the entire time. From what I gather she did not see the entire altercation. So by "entire time" I guess you mean the entire time she saw them?
June 28, 201313 yr From what I gather she did not see the entire altercation. So by "entire time" I guess you mean the entire time she saw them? Yes, from when she came outside until the person got up and started pacing it was the same person on top the entire time.
June 28, 201313 yr While I would agree that Zimmerman following him would is reason for Martin to confront Zimmerman it is not reason for Martin to attack Zimmerman. Has anyone besides Zimmerman testified as to who confronted who?
June 28, 201313 yr Exactly. The "witnesses" couldn't tell who was who so how do they know who was on top at what time? It's quite possible GZ shot him, TM fell face first and then they saw GZ getting up, looking like he was the person on top. If GZ was on top and TM was face down how did he shoot him in the chest? That's where I thought the one shot was anyways... What you said is possible, but I have trouble understanding how, if Martin were on top and was shot, wouldn't he fall on top of Zimmerman? Seems like you would roll the body off you, so Martin wouldn't have been face down. I would assume that there would also be some sort of blood spatter evidence on Zimmerman's clothes.
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