I don't think you get what the saints were doing. They weren't rewarding big hits or big plays only. They were rewarding INJURING opposing players!

 

I've never heard of a team doing that. Not the 80s giants or any other team.

 

Like its already been said. There was a $10k bounty on Favre, and he took several vicious hits including late hits.

 

Oh I fully understand what the Saints were doing. EVERYONE does it. Do you think Osi would ever pull up on a legal hit on a quarterback because he was afraid he might hurt him? I've seen no proof, or even insinuation that the Saints encouraged illegal hits. They just had a system that rewarded players for big hits....and rewarded them even more if those hits put a key player out of the game. It certainly isn't right if a coach or organization is responsible for the payment system but the players are going to do it regardless. Don't act like you are shocked or appalled that the players do this. Let me ask you this: If Brady had been knocked out of the game early in either of the Giants 2 Super Bowl wins on a legal hit (and you didn't know that the Giants would win anyway)...would you have cheered? I'm not talking about paralyzed or permanently injured but knocked out and unable to continue. These are not nice guys when they are on the field. It was wrong for a coach to condone it but it would have happened anyway. The $25,000 and $50,000 fine level had been well established before the hits on Favre. Do you really think that $10,000 bounty is what caused those hits?

If you think that a bounty system specifically designed to injure players exists in most locker rooms you are every bit as naive as you say I am.

 

I've played football. I wanted to hurt the man across from me. But I NEVER wanted to injure him. Surely you know the difference between being hurt and injured.

 

And like some former Greg Williams players have stated...at the time they thought what they were doing was right.

 

There's no doubt in my mind there are reward systems throughout the league on EVERY TEAM. But not ones designed and supported by coaches focusing strictly on injuring opposing players.

 

And I dont think the Saints are evil. But I think Sean Payton thinks he can do whatever he wants. And Greg Williams has done it with every team he's been with.

 

And neither you nor any of the sources in this story has given any proof that the bounties were designed to have players deliver illegal hits with the express purpose of injuring another player. Only that they were rewarded more if their hits did in fact remove another player from the game. We've all cheered an opposing player getting lit up and knocked out of the game. If you say otherwise you are lying. No one has made any accusations that the bounties were to encourage illegal hits.

 

If they were encouraged to deliver illegal hits why didn't EVEN ONE player come forward and report it? Not even a fringe special teamer with an axe to grind wanted to speak up. Not even a guy who suffered a career ending injury and was bitter. No one came forward. So either Greg Williams is the most powerful man in the NFL and they all though he would have them whacked or your "code" amongst players isn't nearly as binding as you made it out. If no one reported him the majority must have been okay with it and in fact participating in it.

Oh I fully understand what the Saints were doing. EVERYONE does it. Do you think Osi would ever pull up on a legal hit on a quarterback because he was afraid he might hurt him? I've seen no proof, or even insinuation that the Saints encouraged illegal hits. They just had a system that rewarded players for big hits....and rewarded them even more if those hits put a key player out of the game. It certainly isn't right if a coach or organization is responsible for the payment system but the players are going to do it regardless. Don't act like you are shocked or appalled that the players do this. Let me ask you this: If Brady had been knocked out of the game early in either of the Giants 2 Super Bowl wins on a legal hit (and you didn't know that the Giants would win anyway)...would you have cheered? I'm not talking about paralyzed or permanently injured but knocked out and unable to continue. These are not nice guys when they are on the field. It was wrong for a coach to condone it but it would have happened anyway. The $25,000 and $50,000 fine level had been well established before the hits on Favre. Do you really think that $10,000 bounty is what caused those hits?

 

First of all, that post was directed at Stick1.

 

No I don't think Osi would pull up on legal a hit. I also don't think Tom Coughlin would encourage Osi to injure someone and reward him for doing so either. And what proof do you need? A system designed to reward players for injuring opposing players is obviously going to lead to illegal hits. To me that's the easy to see. I've watched Saints games throughout the last 2-3 years and I have always thought they were dirty. There is one play specifically that sticks out in my mind against the Giants last year. A Saints safety clocked Hakeem Nicks over the middle, and was flagged. Even AFTER the flag was thrown and the defense knew about the penalty...the safety is seen celebrating. Hakeem Nicks said himself he thought that was probably that safety trying to get his bounty money. Unfortunately for the safety, he was flagged and Nicks came back into the game 2-3 plays later. He didn't get his "cart off".

 

And yes, I've said 10-15 times already that players are going to create some form of a reward system. But most of them aren't going to reward each other for "knock outs" and "cart offs". Ive heard Michael Strahan say he wants to hurt the man across from him, but he never wanted to injure anyone. He wanted to put a guy out for a play or two, but not for the game. This is their job, their livelihood and most of them respect that. Obviously some don't. I just don't believe that most of them don't.

 

As for your example regarding Tom Brady, absolutely not. I would not want him to be injured because I know everyone would be using that as an excuse as to why the Giants won the game.

 

I know they're not nice on the field. That doesn't mean they always want to kill each other. What happened when LT broke Theismans leg? Did he celebrate? LT was one of the most violent players in the game, but when he hurt Theisman he looked like he was seriously worried.

 

Regarding the fines...I'll relate it to crimes. Most people don't think about the punishment when they commit a crime.

And neither you nor any of the sources in this story has given any proof that the bounties were designed to have players deliver illegal hits with the express purpose of injuring another player. Only that they were rewarded more if their hits did in fact remove another player from the game. We've all cheered an opposing player getting lit up and knocked out of the game. If you say otherwise you are lying. No one has made any accusations that the bounties were to encourage illegal hits.

 

If they were encouraged to deliver illegal hits why didn't EVEN ONE player come forward and report it? Not even a fringe special teamer with an axe to grind wanted to speak up. Not even a guy who suffered a career ending injury and was bitter. No one came forward. So either Greg Williams is the most powerful man in the NFL and they all though he would have them whacked or your "code" amongst players isn't nearly as binding as you made it out. If no one reported him the majority must have been okay with it and in fact participating in it.

 

It absolutely does not matter to me whether or not they were designed to have players deliver illegal hits. Any system encouraging injuring opposing players is going to lead to illegal hits. A system designed to reward injuring other players is bad enough in itself.

 

And no, I can't say that I've ever cheered for a player being knocked out of a game. Big hits? Yeah, I like em'. But injuries? Nope. Call me a liar all you want, I really couldn't care less.

 

Where have I said Williams system was designed for them to deliver illegal hits? I said his system likely lead to illegal hits.

Josh Freeman says Tampa Bay Buccaneers were warned about New Orleans Saints' 'cheap shots'

 

"Everybody plays hard, but nobody goes out and tries to hurt each other," Josh Freeman said. "You go out to hit people hard, you know, straight up. But we didn't see a whole lot of that other stuff except when we were playing the Saints."

Edited March 6, 201214 yr by halfback20

Also, it appears Ryan Clark was upset about the snitching, but he also tweeted that he's never been paid money to put another player out of the game.

 

@RealRClark25 Never in my career has a defensive coach singled out a player and put $ on his head. I've never been offered $ to put a player out of a game.

First of all, that post was directed at Stick1.

 

No I don't think Osi would pull up on legal a hit. I also don't think Tom Coughlin would encourage Osi to injure someone and reward him for doing so either. And what proof do you need? A system designed to reward players for injuring opposing players is obviously going to lead to illegal hits. To me that's the easy to see. I've watched Saints games throughout the last 2-3 years and I have always thought they were dirty. There is one play specifically that sticks out in my mind against the Giants last year. A Saints safety clocked Hakeem Nicks over the middle, and was flagged. Even AFTER the flag was thrown and the defense knew about the penalty...the safety is seen celebrating. Hakeem Nicks said himself he thought that was probably that safety trying to get his bounty money. Unfortunately for the safety, he was flagged and Nicks came back into the game 2-3 plays later. He didn't get his "cart off".

 

And yes, I've said 10-15 times already that players are going to create some form of a reward system. But most of them aren't going to reward each other for "knock outs" and "cart offs". Ive heard Michael Strahan say he wants to hurt the man across from him, but he never wanted to injure anyone. He wanted to put a guy out for a play or two, but not for the game. This is their job, their livelihood and most of them respect that. Obviously some don't. I just don't believe that most of them don't.

 

As for your example regarding Tom Brady, absolutely not. I would not want him to be injured because I know everyone would be using that as an excuse as to why the Giants won the game.

 

I know they're not nice on the field. That doesn't mean they always want to kill each other. What happened when LT broke Theismans leg? Did he celebrate? LT was one of the most violent players in the game, but when he hurt Theisman he looked like he was seriously worried.

 

Regarding the fines...I'll relate it to crimes. Most people don't think about the punishment when they commit a crime.

 

So Strahan knew exactly how hard to hit someone to only knock them out of the game for a play or two but not injure them for the rest of the game....riiiiiiight. He must be a master physicist and biologist to know that. As for a safety celebrating after hitting a reciever over the middle--I saw that several times last season alone, and not just from the Saints. The players get pumped up over that, both the player delivering the hit as well as his teammates.

 

As for Coughlin encouraging it,I'm sure he didn't. I already said that it was wrong of Williams to be involved. I still don't think his involvement had any impact as to whether it was going to happen or not. But now that you mention it, where was Coughlin after Jacquian Williams said this about trying to hit and injure 49ers punt returner Kyle Williams in the NFC Championship: “The thing is, we knew he had four concussions, so that was our biggest thing, was to take him outta the game.” Not enough for you? How about Giants player Devin Thomas who said: “We were just like, ‘We gotta put a hit on that guy.’ … [Giants reserve safety Tyler] Sash did a great job hitting him early and he looked kind of dazed when he got up. I feel like that made a difference and he coughed it up.”

 

Do you think Coughlin didn't know about that? Do you think those guys didn't collect some money on film day on Monday morning? Still think it is only a few teams?

So Strahan knew exactly how hard to hit someone to only knock them out of the game for a play or two but not injure them for the rest of the game....riiiiiiight. He must be a master physicist and biologist to know that. As for a safety celebrating after hitting a reciever over the middle--I saw that several times last season alone, and not just from the Saints. The players get pumped up over that, both the player delivering the hit as well as his teammates.

 

As for Coughlin encouraging it,I'm sure he didn't. I already said that it was wrong of Williams to be involved. I still don't think his involvement had any impact as to whether it was going to happen or not. But now that you mention it, where was Coughlin after Jacquian Williams said this about trying to hit and injure 49ers punt returner Kyle Williams in the NFC Championship: “The thing is, we knew he had four concussions, so that was our biggest thing, was to take him outta the game.” Not enough for you? How about Giants player Devin Thomas who said: “We were just like, ‘We gotta put a hit on that guy.’ … [Giants reserve safety Tyler] Sash did a great job hitting him early and he looked kind of dazed when he got up. I feel like that made a difference and he coughed it up.”

 

Do you think Coughlin didn't know about that? Do you think those guys didn't collect some money on film day on Monday morning? Still think it is only a few teams?

 

Wow, you really didn't get the Strahan example. Let me try again. Strahan said he NEVER wanted to injure someone. He played physical, he wanted to hurt the man across from him, but he never did anything to try and put him out of the game or end his season. Do you really not understand the difference between being hurt and injured? It's really not that difficult. I learned it in middle school from my coach when i told him my leg hurt. He asked me, "Are you hurt...or are you injured?" He then explained to me that when you are hurt, you can keep playing. When you are injured, you are out.

 

And I wasn't talking about him just celebrating a big hit. The man was celebrating minutes after the hit, even after he knew he got flagged for the hit.

 

I've seen the quotes from J. Williams and Devin Thomas. If they did something illegal, or were paid money to injure Kyle Williams, I'd be very upset. Were they paid to injure Kyle Williams? No. Did they injure Kyle Williams? No. Did they hit Kyle Williams illegally? No. Did they hit Kyle Williams hard? No. What do you want Coughlin to say?

 

If they were paid money, it wouldn't have been for a "cart off" or a "knock out"...so it's still not anywhere near the same as what the Saints were running. And yes, I think paying players to injure opposing players happens on very few teams. Just because you say something doesn't make it true. :lol:

Wow, you really didn't get the Strahan example. Let me try again. Strahan said he NEVER wanted to injure someone. He played physical, he wanted to hurt the man across from him, but he never did anything to try and put him out of the game or end his season. Do you really not understand the difference between being hurt and injured? It's really not that difficult. I learned it in middle school from my coach when i told him my leg hurt. He asked me, "Are you hurt...or are you injured?" He then explained to me that when you are hurt, you can keep playing. When you are injured, you are out.

 

And I wasn't talking about him just celebrating a big hit. The man was celebrating minutes after the hit, even after he knew he got flagged for the hit.

 

I've seen the quotes from J. Williams and Devin Thomas. If they did something illegal, or were paid money to injure Kyle Williams, I'd be very upset. Were they paid to injure Kyle Williams? No. Did they injure Kyle Williams? No. Did they hit Kyle Williams illegally? No. Did they hit Kyle Williams hard? No. What do you want Coughlin to say?

 

If they were paid money, it wouldn't have been for a "cart off" or a "knock out"...so it's still not anywhere near the same as what the Saints were running. And yes, I think paying players to injure opposing players happens on very few teams. Just because you say something doesn't make it true. :lol:

 

And you weren't inside the Giants locker room either. So even though at least one of the players said that he wanted to and in fact tried to INJURE (because I'd hate to get it confused with hurt) Williams it is okay because he didn't succeed? How do you know that the punt coverage team didn't throw some money in a pot and the one that gave him his fifth concussion got to claim it? Their intent was clear from what they said, does the fact that money was or wasn't involved make it any more right or wrong? If I go out and shoot into a crowd with a beanbag gun or rubber bullets am I any less guilty if I miss? After all those are meant to hurt, not injure people. If a coach wasn't involved this would not be such a big deal. How many teams has he coached for now? Isn't the big part of the story that he did it everywhere he went? If the players and coaches across the league were that much against it how did he keep getting jobs? I'll just agree to disagree and let you go back to your land of leprechauns and unicorns.

And you weren't inside the Giants locker room either. So even though at least one of the players said that he wanted to and in fact tried to INJURE (because I'd hate to get it confused with hurt) Williams it is okay because he didn't succeed? How do you know that the punt coverage team didn't throw some money in a pot and the one that gave him his fifth concussion got to claim it? Their intent was clear from what they said, does the fact that money was or wasn't involved make it any more right or wrong? If I go out and shoot into a crowd with a beanbag gun or rubber bullets am I any less guilty if I miss? After all those are meant to hurt, not injure people. If a coach wasn't involved this would not be such a big deal. How many teams has he coached for now? Isn't the big part of the story that he did it everywhere he went? If the players and coaches across the league were that much against it how did he keep getting jobs? I'll just agree to disagree and let you go back to your land of leprechauns and unicorns.

 

Who said they tried to injure someone? How do you know the punt coverage team did throw money in a pot? Your just making wild accusations now with no facts what so ever to back them up. Like I said before, just because you say something happened doesn't mean it happened.

 

Oh and btw...

 

League spokesman Greg Aiello said in an email that the Giants did nothing against the rules.

 

“Players are held accountable for their actions on the field. There were no illegal hits to the head or neck area against Kyle Williams on Sunday,” Aiello said. “There was no conduct by the Giants of any kind that would suggest an effort to injure Kyle Williams in any way.”

 

LINK

 

Not sure why the last part is necessary. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean we have to start insulting each other. Stay classy AJG.

Who said they tried to injure someone? How do you know the punt coverage team did throw money in a pot? Your just making wild accusations now with no facts what so ever to back them up. Like I said before, just because you say something happened doesn't mean it happened.

 

Not sure why the last part is necessary. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean we have to start insulting each other. Stay classy AJG.

 

Kyle Williams said it clearly when he said that he knew that the returner had 4 consussions and their biggest thing was to try and take him out of the game. I'm sorry I guess mentioning someone having 4 consussions and trying to take them out of the game doesn't count because a Giant player said it, right? I don't think he was talking about taking his hand and escorting him to the sideline, do you? It sounded pretty clear that he was talking about giving him concussion number 5. Just because he and his teammates didn't succeed doesn't mean they didn't try.

 

Also, I never said that they put money into a pot. What I said was, and I quote "How do you know that the punt coverage team didn't throw some money in a pot and the one that gave him his fifth concussion got to claim it? Their intent was clear from what they said, does the fact that money was or wasn't involved make it any more right or wrong? " He plainly said that they wanted to take him out of the game....and he said WE not I so it was clearly discussed at least amongst his teammates. What I asked was how do you know that they didn't have a bounty on him? Can you tell me they didn't? They for sure wanted to injure him. Just because they failed doesn't make it right.

 

If that were a Saints player's quote talking about a Giants return man how would you have read it? Give me an honest answer.

Kyle Williams said it clearly when he said that he knew that the returner had 4 consussions and their biggest thing was to try and take him out of the game. I'm sorry I guess mentioning someone having 4 consussions and trying to take them out of the game doesn't count because a Giant player said it, right? I don't think he was talking about taking his hand and escorting him to the sideline, do you? It sounded pretty clear that he was talking about giving him concussion number 5. Just because he and his teammates didn't succeed doesn't mean they didn't try.

 

Also, I never said that they put money into a pot. What I said was, and I quote "How do you know that the punt coverage team didn't throw some money in a pot and the one that gave him his fifth concussion got to claim it? Their intent was clear from what they said, does the fact that money was or wasn't involved make it any more right or wrong? " He plainly said that they wanted to take him out of the game....and he said WE not I so it was clearly discussed at least amongst his teammates. What I asked was how do you know that they didn't have a bounty on him? Can you tell me they didn't? They for sure wanted to injure him. Just because they failed doesn't make it right.

 

If that were a Saints player's quote talking about a Giants return man how would you have read it? Give me an honest answer.

 

Actually Justin Tuck and Michael Boley said they didn't discuss it in the last link I posted.

 

And maybe you know more about the game than the people who review the NFL tapes, but there were no penalties and no fines. NFL even said there were no bad hits to the head or neck of Williams. Why would the Giants want to hurt him? He was the best player on the field for the Giants :lol: Ever think they just wanted to rattle him?

 

If they were trying to injure him, I disagree with it and think its wrong. Obviously there's no evidence in the actual game tape that they did try to injure him.

 

There is evidence that the Saints were actually paid to injure other players though.

We will have to agree to disagree AJG. I've said my part. I'm out for the night.

You say it like its the same thing the saints are doing. College stickers are usually rewarded for big plays in general, not injuring opposing players. How can you not see the difference there?

 

I can see the difference. My point with the stickers is that if a player in college hits someone and that person gets knocked out the game the player likely gets a helmet sticker regardless of whether the player was knocked out or not. That's my whole point with the stickers. I sincerely doubt they withhold the sticker if the player leaves the game with an injury.

 

It's a reward system in its most fundamental state.

I don't think you get what the saints were doing. They weren't rewarding big hits or big plays only. They were rewarding INJURING opposing players!

 

I've never heard of a team doing that. Not the 80s giants or any other team.

 

Like its already been said. There was a $10k bounty on Favre, and he took several vicious hits including late hits.

I haven't read the article but I figured the money was for knocking players out of the game. Everytime a guy caught a ball around me I wanted to knock him out of the game. To me that's just your mentality on defense. To impose your will and intemidate. Much the way a team like the Niners played this year.

I am 100% against doing it with cheap shots. I think it's wrong to pay players to take guys out but to me that's your mentality anyways on defense.

I think it goes on WAY more than the average fan realizes though. Bounties have gone on for a long time. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. I wouldn't be suprised if it doesn't open a flood gate for law suits. Manning+Favre alone would be HUGE $$ and something the NFL doesn't want to loom!!

What kind of makes me laugh about the situation is when you think the NO Saints do you think physical D? When you think physical D a couple of years ago do you think of the Skins? Note to self never use the bounty system!